TEXT :
MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Members, before calling Shri P. Shiv Shanker, I may
inform you that a discussion under Rule 193 on the allegations levelled by the
former Adviser to the Finance Minister against the Government has been
admitted in the names of Prof. P.J. Kurien and Shri Sharad Pawar. They have
now requested me to allow Shri P. Shiv Shanker to raise the discussion on
their behalf. I have allowed Shri P. Shiv Shanker to raise the discussion.
Now, Shri P. Shiv Shanker.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI PRAKASH VISHWANATH PARANJPE (THANE): Sir, how many speakers are there?
MR. SPEAKER: Why are you in hurry? You should have some patience.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI PRAKASH VISHWANATH PARANJPE : Sir, we are representing poor people in the House but we are more concerned about the Guruswamys... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seat. Hon. Member, this is too much. What is this?
... (Interruptions)
SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER (TENALI): Mr. Speaker, Sir, the person named Guruswamy had been a member of the Bharatiya Janata Party...(Interruptions) Why this Member is going on talking like this? Let the House be in order so that I can speak...(Interruptions) If they go on making running commentaries, I will not be able to start my speech. It is very unfair on the part of the gentleman to interrupt me like this.
Mr. Speaker, Sir, the person by name Shri Guruswamy had been the member of the Bharatiya Janata Party and he claims to have worked on developing that Party's agenda which, he says, has been spelt out in the manifesto of the Party. He also claims that he was the original author of the programme. He was appointed by this Government as the Advisor...(Interruptions)
16.17 hrs (Mr. Deputy-Speaker in the Chair)
I beseech the Whip and the Ministers to control their Members. This is not the way the Treasury Benches should behave. They cannot go on interrupting like this...(Interruptions) If they would like to gag our voice, then they will not be able to continue in the Treasury Benches. I do not interrupt the Members.
Sir, he was appointed as the Advisor or the Consultant, whatever nomenclature that could be given by the Finance Minister. This gentleman is said to have been sacked on 3rd February, 1999 whereas he has claimed that he has resigned on January 27, 1999. My submission is that since the case of the Government is that he has been sacked, there must have necessarily been certain circumstances under which this gentleman is said to have been sacked. All these circumstances are shrouded in mystery. Since then, he had been raising serious issues which smack of corruption in the Government at the highest level. Be it in the shape of the Prime Minister whose son-in-law is said to be involved as an extra constitutional authority in taking decision in various matters, equally the other Ministers like the Ministers of Commerce, Steel, Home and Information and Broadcasting and so on and so forth are also involved.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Lal Muni Chaubey, are you on a point of order?
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: He is not yielding.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER (TENALI): This gentleman had been raising all types of allegations, a lot of dust has been blown out. But no legal action whatsoever has been taken against him so far. There is no specific contradiction of what this gentleman had been trying to say all this time. The issues raised and the reasons furnished, as I said earlier, opened a can of worms. It raised questions about the integrity of the Government, its Ministers, as I said including the Prime Minister, and everyone else.
Now, the issues that have been raised and the allegations that have been brought out by this gentleman are of a diverse nature. Sir, because of the imminent danger of steel units, defaulting on their considerable loans, there was a threat to the banking system with a large burden of additional Non-Performing Assets (NPA). With a view to examining as to how the steel industry and the banking system could be bailed out, the Minister of Finance convened in or around October, 1998, a trilateral meeting of: (a) representatives of both public and private sector; (b) three Ministers concerned - Finance, Commerce and Steel; and (c) the respective senior civil servants and other experts.
The option agreed was to fix a referral price. The option of the floor price was not even proposed in that meeting, as fixing of the floor price would have been against the grain of liberalisation. In consequence of policy decision to fix the referral price, a Working Group of representatives of Ministries was set up to determine the referral price. The key parameters that were taken into consideration were the domestic cost of production base primarily on sales cost - because the cost of steel was bound to be higher in view of the old technology, and the massive labour force - screening the invoices of actual imports effected during the period showed a range of 180 to 220 dollars per tonnes.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE (SHRI YASHWANT SINHA): This is a debate under Rule 193 on allegations raised by Shri Mohan Guruswamy. Now, I would only make one request to Shri Shiv Shanker and other hon. Members who participate in the debate, if they refer to whatever Shri Mohan Guruswamy has said in the various articles that he has written and the interviews that he has given, that would be perfectly in order. If they are referring to any other issue which is beyond the ambit of what he has said then, I would suggest that please confirm it with documents and evidence that they might have.
If it is also in the nature of an allegation, then, under the rules, we need fresh notice.
SHRI VAIKO : The rules are very clear. A fresh notice has to be given.
SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : You may be knowing more rules, Shri Vaiko, whereas I also know the rules.
SHRI VAIKO : You are well aware of that.
SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : Please do not disturb me.
Sir, based on the allegations made by Shri Guruswamy, if there are certain peripheral facts or facts that go to support the allegation, I am entitled to make the submission and under the rules there is no question of my being stopped on that.
Sir, as I submitted, taking into consideration all these parameters, the Working Group has recommended $247 per tonne to give an effective duty on the referral price. But when the notification was issued, it contained a floor price of $302 per tonne. The consequence was an unearned bonanza of $55 per tonne which is above the cost of production and the reasonable level of profit.
Sir, I was trying to read the newspapers this morning and was trying to see as to what exactly has been said by the hon. Minister. The hon. Minister of Steel, who intervened yesterday in the Rajya Sabha, has gone on record to say that while the Inter-Ministerial Group has recommended not the referral price, but the floor price of $247 per tonne. But the notification that was issued was for $302 per tonne.
THE MINISTER OF STEEL AND MINES (SHRI NAVEEN PATNAIK): Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, I want to clarify very clearly. I said nothing of the kind that the Inter-Ministerial Group did not recommend a price, but once, as a suggestion for the steel problems, they said that we could have a floor price. (Interruptions)
SHRI HARIN PATHAK (AHMEDABAD): Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, we would like to know whether the allegations that Shri Shiv Shanker is making are actually made by Shri Mohan Guruswamy or by the hon. Member himself. The House should know that.
SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : All these allegations are made by Shri Mohan Guruswamy.
SHRI HARIN PATHAK : Sir, we would like to know whether these allegations are made by the former Advisor to the hon. Minister or by the hon. Member. If they are made by the hon. Member, then he should place all the documents which he has in his possession on the Table of the House. (Interruptions)
SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : Sir, the Minister also interrupts and he is also interrupting. What is this? Do they want that this debate should not go on?
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please do not interrupt him.
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Whatever allegations he is making, he will make them with documents.
SHRI HARIN PATHAK : Then, he should place all those documents on the Table of the House. (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please do not interrupt him. We do not have time.
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please resume your seat.
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Do not interrupt like this.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI PRAKASH VISHWANATH PARANJPE : Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, they have appeared in the newspapers. Everybody knows the allegations. What is the point in reading out them again? (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Can any Member stand up and speak like this without the permission of the Chair? What is this? He is quoting from a newspaper. How can I stop him?
SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE (BOLPUR): Sir, they have a competent Finance Minister to look after it. Why should he need these assistants? (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: May I request the hon. Members to be serious? We are discussing a serious matter.
Every now and then, you are getting up and interrupting him. Please do not do that.
... (Interruptions)
SHRIMATI SUSHMA SWARAJ (SOUTH DELHI): Sir, I am on a point of order under Rule 354. It says:
"No speech made in the Council shall be quoted in the House unless it is a definite statement of policy by a Minister:"
... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)
... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)
SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : So far, I have not quoted anything. ... (Interruptions)
SHRIMATI SUSHMA SWARAJ : I need a ruling from you. ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Have you referred to a speech?
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Let me hear what he has said.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI S. JAIPAL REDDY (MAHABUBNAGAR): I am referring to Rule 354. Shri Shiv Shanker did not quote. He has referred. ... (Interruptions) `Reference' is different from `quotation'. What is forbidden is quotation and not reference.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: He did not quote from a speech.
SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : I am amused at the objection. ... (Interruptions) What is this? ... (Interruptions) I am not yielding.
SHRI KHARABELA SWAIN (BALASORE): Sir, I have also got a point of order. ... (Interruptions)
SHRIMATI SUSHMA SWARAJ : It further says:
"Provided that the Speaker may, on a request being made to him in advance, give permission to a Member to quote a speech or make reference to the proceedings..."
So, Shri Jaipal Reddy, please read the Rule. It does not speak about the quotation only. I repeat it:
"...to quote a speech or make reference to the proceedings in the Council,...."
SHRI S. JAIPAL REDDY : A reference to a reported speech in the newspaper is different from a reference to the proceedings in the House.
SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : I do not know.
SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE : Sir, I request the Minister of Finance to give some work to my neice. ... (Interruptions) She has a lot of time - now reading the Rule Book and nothing else to do. ... (Interruptions) Why do you not take that at least graceful, charming advisor in your Ministry? ... (Interruptions)
SHRIMATI SUSHMA SWARAJ : I am only assisting the hon. Deputy-Speaker. Comrade, I am not advising the Minister of Finance. ... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: I think, you have not quoted it.
SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : I just said what was contained in it. I only referred to the newspaper report.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: There is no point of order.
... (Interruptions)
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Let us have a serious debate.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : I only said what was contained in The Indian Express. It has appeared this morning. It has been mentioned there that the Minister of Steel, while intervening in the debate yesterday in the Rajya Sabha, has said that the Inter-Ministerial Committee has recommended `247'. But the DGTD has fixed the price at `302'. This is what has appeared in the newspaper. That is what I have referred to.
What I am submitting is this. Whether it is a referral price or a floor price, I would not like to go into that controversy because they now seem to be taking the view that it is not a referral price but it is a floor price. Granting that it is a floor price, if the Inter-Ministerial Committee has recommended `247' and if the DGTD has fixed the price at $ 302 per tonne, that means there is a bonanza of $ 55.
What Shri Guruswamy himself meant was "...Rs. 5,000 crore every year enabling the industrialists to make the unlawful money".
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE (SHRI YASHWANT SINHA): Where does he say that?
SHRI VAIKO (SIVAKASI): He never said so.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Vaiko, you are the next speaker, you can say whatever you want to say at that time . Hon. Minister, when you reply to the debate, you can say what you want to say; not now. We do not have time.
SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : It would be very difficult to locate that portion. He also said it yesterday. My friend is locating it. If I start locating it, it will take a little time for me.
MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Chaplot, he is not yielding.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : Without wasting the time of this House, I will immediately quote. I have asked my friend to take it out because I have marked those portions. I will proceed further.
What I am submitting is this. The speech of the Finance Minister made in the Rajya Sabha is not available - I have been trying since morning, it is not available - because it is in the supplementary document. But I understand that he seems to have said - if I am wrong, he may correct me - that there was no question of fixing it at $ 247, it had been fixed at $ 302. This is what he must have said. I do not know.
Sir, I would like to bring to your kind attention at this stage itself what had happened on 5th March in this House. On 5th March, when I raised this issue - I am quoting from page 3718 of the proceedings of this House - Shri Yashwant Sinha got up and said:
"I am ready to respond."
Nobody asked him to respond. He himelf got up and said he wants to respond. Now, I am quoting from page 3724. Shri Devegowda while trying to make some observations stated:
"According to him, the DGFT fixed the floor price at Rs. 245. At that time, in the market, the HR coil steel was available at Rs. 190 per metric tonne. Then, it was reversed to $ 302 per metric tonne to help certain companies."
This was the allegation which he made. Now, I will quote from page 3726. The Minister of Finance stated:
"As far as this issue raised by Shri Devegowda is concerned, the price was not fixed by the Minister, as Shri Mohan Guruswamy makes out. There was a meeting between the Minister of Steel and Mines and myself. We did not discuss this floor price. It was subsequently the Minister of Steel who took up the matter with the Ministry of Commerce, with the Director-General of Foreign Trade within whose jurisdiction this matter lies and they have fixed the price."
It means, he does not say at that time that $ 247 or $ 245 were never suggested. Whatever Shri Devegowda has said that might have existed.
What he says is that he does not know anything. It is a matter between the Steel Ministry and the Commerce Ministry and the Steel Ministry recommended to the Directorate General of Foreign Trade. Both of them have gone into it and the Ministry of Commerce had issued the notification.
Therefore, Sir, what the hon. Finance Minister says today, `that the recommendation for 247 dollars does not exist' is purely an afterthought. It is purely an afterthought because he wants to suppress the facts. It is a case of suppresio vari suggestio falsi. This is a case where he does not want to tell the truth to the House and the nation. He wants to suppress the facts.
If this was the situation which equally existed on the 5th of March, when he spoke in this House -- nobody asked him to speak -- he himself got up to speak, he himself volunteered, he could have at that time said that there was no question of 247 dollars ever recommended by any ministerial committee. On the contrary, he could have straightaway said that 302 dollars were fixed.
Sir, that shows that the Minister of Finance is hiding the facts. He is not bringing the real truth to the notice of the House. If you kindly read the newspapers again, now the Minister of Finance has said that he quoted London Metal Bulletin prices and even the Steel Minister says that in Amercia the spiralling price was 310 dollars. We are not concerned with that. What we are concerned with is, at what rate the steel coils were being imported in this country? The fact of the matter is that the invoices reveal that the coils were imported in this country at the rate of 180 to 220 dollars per tonne. He has to reckon it from that point of view. What prevails in America or what prevails in London is not our concern. At what rate the CIS countries, particularly, Khazakistan was exporting the coils to this country? The invoices reveal that they were at the rate of 180 to 220 dollars per tonne. The inter-ministerial committee went into the whole question. After going into it, they recommended 247 dollars per tonne. Then how suddenly this 302 dollars fixed is a matter which is shrouded in the mystry. One has to go into it. How does one go into it? If they say and if they withhold certain facts, if they can withhold certain documents, if they can withhold certain files and then suggest to us, `what we said you please accept', that will not be acceptable.