TEXT :
15.04 hrs.
(Mr. Speaker in the Chair)
MR. SPEAKER: The House will now take up Item No.23. Shri L.K. Advani. ... (Interruptions)
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MR. SPEAKER: Some Members have given notices. Let him first seek the leave of the House.
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MR. SPEAKER: He is asking for leave.
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MR. SPEAKER: Please understand that he is only asking for leave of the House. He is not introducing the Bill.
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SHRI L.K. ADVANI: Sir, I beg to move for leave to introduce a Bill to provide for the reorganisation of the existing State of Uttar Pradesh and for matters connected therewith.
MR. SPEAKER: Motion moved:
"That leave be granted to introduce a Bill to provide for the reorganisation of the existing State of Uttar Pradesh and for matters connected therewith."
... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: I have received some notices from hon. Members. I have to call them first. Shri Manoranjan Bhakta.
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* Published in the Gazette of India,Extraordinary, Part II, Section - 2
dated 22.12.98
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MR. SPEAKER: Shri Manoranjan Bhakta, this is a separate issue.
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I would like to draw your kind attention to article 3 of the Constitution which deals with formation of new States and alteration of areas, boundaries or names of existing States. It says:
"Parliament may by law -
(a) form a new State...;
(b) increase the area of any State;
(c) diminish the area of any State;
(d) alter the boundaries of any State;
(e) alter the name of any State:"
After this, the Proviso says:
"Provided that no Bill for the purpose shall be introduced in either House of Parliament except on the recommendation of the President and unless, where the proposal contained in the Bill affects the area, boundaries or name of any of the States, the Bill has been referred by the President to the Legislature of that State for expressing its views thereon within such period as may be specified..."
Now, if the Bill has to be necessarily referred to the Legislature of this State, the views which have been expressed by the Legislature must be known to the hon. Members of this House before a view is taken and before the Minister of Home Affairs asks for leave to introduce the Bill in this House.
I have gone through this Bill. In the papers attached with it, there is absolutely no mention whatsoever about the views which have been expressed by the Legislative Assembly of Uttar Pradesh.
The proposed area certainly is not what has been recommended as we know from the proceedings of the Assembly. The proposal given by the Uttar Pradesh Legislative Assembly is not contained in this Bill.
Moreover, the legislation is a serious business. There must be an application of mind. Enough care must be taken. Here, I would like to draw your kind attention to para 3 of the Statement of Objects and Reasons. This Bill deals with the creation of a new State by carving out an area from the existing State of Uttar Pradesh. This is what para 3 of the Statement of Objects and Reasons says:
"While taking the decision to carve out a separate State of Uttarakhand out of the existing State of Uttar Pradesh, the Government has also decided that a dedicated Unit shall be set up in the Planning Commission under the direct charge of the Deputy Chairman, Planning Commission, to deal exclusively with the matters relating to the rest of Bihar consequent upon formation of the State of Uttarakhand."
Now they are carving out a State... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: No, please.
SHRI ARIF MOHAMMED KHAN : There may be an amendment, but my point is ... (Interruptions)
SHRI SATYA PAL JAIN (CHANDIGARH): Sir, I am on a point of order... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Shri Khan, what is your objection to this Bill?
SHRI ARIF MOHAMMED KHAN : Sir, my objection is that this matter was necessarily to be referred to the UP Legislative Assembly by the President and the Legislature was supposed to express its view. Now, we do not have any account of that. The House should be informed what view has been expressed by the Legislature. Therefore, my request is that the hon. Minister should reconsider this proposal... (Interruptions)
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MR. SPEAKER: Shri Chandumajra, not like this. Whoever gives the notice before 10 o'clock, only he is given a chance to speak. You are giving a notice just now. It cannot be taken up.
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ªÉ½þ +É{É VªÉÉnùiÉÒ Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þèÆ*MR. SPEAKER: There is an established rules and procedure for that. How can you speak like this.
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KUMARI MAMATA BANERJEE (CALCUTTA SOUTH): Mr. Speaker Sir, we want clarifications before the hon. Minister introduces the Bill... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Home Minister is asking for leave to introduce the Bill. You must follow the procedure. You cannot go against the procedure.
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PROF. PREM SINGH CHANDUMAJRA : Sir, you assured us that after the introduction of the Bill, we could seek clarifications... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Please understand first. There is a procedure and you have to go according to the procedure. You cannot go against the procedure.
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MR. SPEAKER: I am appealing to you. This is not the procedure.
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KUMARI MAMATA BANERJEE : All right, Sir, you do not allow so many Members to speak, but allow, at least one person to speak. We appeal to you... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Why do you not understand? He is just asking for leave to introduce the Bill.
... (Interruptions)
PROF. PREM SINGH CHANDUMAJRA : Sir, you have the power to call anyone... (Interruptions)
KUMARI MAMATA BANERJEE : Sir, may I appeal to you?... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister will clarify the position.
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KUMARI MAMATA BANERJEE : Sir, before the hon. Minister introduces the Bill, we would like to say something. We have also given notice... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: You have to follow the procedure.
... (Interruptions)
KUMARI MAMATA BANERJEE : Sir, we want to place it on record that we have an objection before the introduction of the Bill... (Interruptions)
Mr. Speaker Sir, according to the prescribed rules, you have permitted those who have given notices of objections to introduction. Shri Manoranjan Bhakta has raised that issue and even in the preamble he said that he had no objection to this Bill as such. But he availed of the occasion to speak about Andaman & Nicobar Islands being given statehood. This is a demand which is being raised by several Union Territories including Andaman & Nicobar Islands.
I have already told him that if a demand being made by Pondicherry, if a demand being made by Delhi and, in fact, even about Lakshadweep I heard that the demand is growing gradually...
SHRI SATYA PAL JAIN : Sir, Chandigarh also.
SHRI L.K. ADVANI: Yes, Chandigarh also.
SHRI SANSUMA KHUNGGUR BWISWMUTHIARY (KOKRAJHAR): Sir, what about Bodoland? Why is there no such Bill? It is the most genuine and legitimate demand of the people of that area. It is not in the interest of anti-national people... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Not like this, please.
SHRI L.K. ADVANI: This is a different matter and I have been in communication with him. He also mentioned that the Prime Minister is visiting Andaman & Nicobar Islands.
A point was raised by our B.S.P. Leader, Shri Arif Mohammed Khan in which he quoted that this is a Bill which is being introduced under Article 3 of the Constitution. That Article says that when Parliament by law seeks to carve out a new State or alter the boundaries of any State or diminish the area of any State or increase the area of any State, such a Bill cannot be introduced in either House of Parliament except on the recommendation of the President. He is very right. This is a limitation imposed on the Government when a Bill of this nature is introduced. Further, that Article imposes a restriction on the President also and says that the President cannot recommend such a Bill where the proposal contained in the Bill affects the area, boundaries or name of any of the State. The Bill has been referred by the President to the Legislature of that State for expressing its views thereon within such periods as may be specified.
These are the two limitations which govern introduction of a Bill under this particular Article. I can only say that both these limitations were kept in mind when the Government considered the Bill in the last Session. After the Session, we sought the recommendation of the President. The President said that I cannot recommend it. I, first, under the law, have to refer it to the Assembly and seek its opinion. He sought its opinion and then conveyed to us a recommendation formally which I have given to you. So, all the necessary requisites have been followed. Therefore, for anyone to suggest that it is not within the legislative competence of this House to enact the Bill is not quite correct.
It has been stated in the Rules of Procedure itself that the only substantial point on which the introduction of a Bill can be opposed is that it is not within the legislative competence of the House. As far as amendments, etc. are concerned, the Parliament can consider, we can all consider and the views of the Assembly also can be considered. But as far as the basic conditions which are needed to introduce a Bill are concerned, they have been duly fulfilled. I have already conveyed them to you. Therefore, that I expect this House to permit me to move this Bill. (Interruptions).
MR. SPEAKER: There is one observation from the Chair. Prof. Chandumajra, even though you have not given a notice before 10 o' clock, as a special permission from the Chair, I am allowing you one minute. I am allowing one minute to Kumari Mamata Banerjee also.
But we appeal to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs that before taking any decision we should not compel those people to be a part of a particular State. We have to consider from the humanitarian grounds also and the sentiments of the local people also. If they agree to be in Uttar Pradesh we do not have any objection. But when the Committee was set up, they have not visited the site and they have not talked to the people. May I request the Minister of Home Affairs -- he is a sensible man, I believe so -- and the Prime Minister who is here, that before taking any final decision they may consider the wishes of the people so that the people from the other side also should not feel hostile, that they do not want to stay with that stay.