+É{ÉxÉä ¨ÉÖZÉä ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä EòÉ ¨ÉÉèEòÉ ÊnùªÉÉ, ¨ÉèÆ +É{ÉEòÉ ¤É½þÖiÉ-¤É½þÖiÉ ¶ÉÖÊFòªÉÉ +nùÉ Eò®úiÉÉ ½þÚÆ*

SHRI C. GOPAL (ARAKKONAM): Sir, I would like to seek a clarification from the hon. Minister. There was a bomb blast in Tamil Nadu in which the hon. Home Minister had a narrow escape. The BJP unit of the State of Tamil Nadu has submitted a Memorandum, which has been signed by a few lakhs of people, demanding a CBI enquiry into the matter. One Shri Basha was arrested in the matter and it is suspected that he is an ISI agent ... (Interruptions)

SHRI C. KUPPUSAMI : Sir, the Government of Tamil Nadu had taken all necessary steps and the Central Home Minister was also satisfied with the situation. ... (Interruptions)

SHRI C. GOPAL : Sir, I have been given to understand that the Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu had written a letter for having the matter enquired into by the CBI. I would like to know whether there is any proposal for conducting an enquiry by the CBI or not.

MÞÉ½þ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ (¸ÉÒ ±ÉÉ±É EÞò¹hÉ +Éb÷´ÉÉhÉÒ): ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ VÉÒ, ¨ÉèÆ ºÉnùxÉ EòÉ ¤É½þÖiÉ +É¦ÉÉ®úÒ ½þÚÆ ÊEò =x½þÉäÆxÉä ¨ÉÉä]õä iÉÉè®ú {É®ú <ºÉ Ê´ÉvÉäªÉEò EòÉä ºÉ¨ÉlÉÇxÉ ÊnùªÉÉ* ¤É½þºÉ Eòä nùÉè®úÉxÉ EòÖUô ºÉ´ÉÉ±É {ÉÚUôä MÉB, EòÖUô ¶ÉÆEòÉBÆ ¦ÉÒ |ÉEò]õ EòÒ MÉ<ÇÆ ½þèÆ +Éè®ú ¨ÉèÆ ºÉÆIÉä{É ¨ÉäÆ =xÉEòÉ =iiÉ®ú nùäxÉä EòÒ EòÉäÊ¶É¶É Eò°üÆMÉÉ* {É½þ±ÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ªÉ½þ ÊEò |ÉÉä. |É¨ÉÉÊhÉEò BEò ½þÒ ºÉnùºªÉ lÉä, ÊVÉx½þÉäÆxÉä ºÉÆ¶ÉÉävÉxÉ ÊnùB ½þèÆ* ±ÉÉäMÉ =ºÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ vªÉÉxÉ xÉ½þÒÆ nùä ®ú½þä lÉä, ¨ÉèÆ vªÉÉxÉ nùä ®ú½þÉ lÉÉ +Éè®ú ¨ÉèÆ Eò½þÚÆMÉÉ ÊEò =x½þÉäÆxÉä +vªÉªÉxÉ ÊEòªÉÉ*

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it is not a compound, it is an

element. Furthermore, it is a radioactive substance which, in its ordinary form, is not explosive. It becomes explosive when it is enriched and fusion is allowed to take place at a very very high temperature. Otherwise, they are not explosive in that sense.

PROF. R.R. PRAMANIK (MATHURAPUR): Uranium 235 is a fissile material and not a fertile one. Natural Uranium contains Uranium 235 and Uranium 238. Uranium 238 is a fertile element, not a fissile one. For making a bomb, critical mass is required. But Uranium 235 is an explosive nuclear substance. When you call a substance explosive, it can be a conventional explosive or a nuclear explosive but it is an explosive substance. For making a bomb, critical mass is required, detonation is required and so many technologies are required. But Uranium 235 is enriched. Plutonium is a fissile element. Sub-critical bombs are now coming in.

SHRI L.K. ADVANI: I shall keep your knowledge in mind. But I do not want to make amendments in the law which give ideas to people. Firstly, it is essentially a matter on which scientists can comment; I would not claim to do that. But I did enquire, after your amendment, and I did go into the whole thing. After all that, I came to the conclusion that the present formulation of the law is the best because it `includes' and it does not exclude anything. Today, at least we are aware that the kind of explosives Pakistan or the ISI have been providing to the militants are, principally these three. These are the substances that are being provided and, therefore, they have been specifically mentioned.

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"Any person who unlawfully and maliciously causes, by any explosive substance, an explosion of a nature ..."

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SHRI AJAY CHAKRABORTY (BASIRHAT): Is it for ISI?

SHRI L.K. ADVANI: It is not for ISI. There is no mention of ISI. These explosives are not available here. They have got from them... (Interruptions)

MR. CHAIRMAN : The question is:

"That the Bill further to amend the Explosive Substances Act, 1908, be taken into consideration."

The motion was adopted.

---

PROF. R.R. PRAMANIK : But Sir, I have got the amendment. I was assured that I would speak later on, on amendments.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The House will now take up clause by clause consideration of the Bill.

Clause 2

PROF. R.R. PRAMANIK : I beg to move:

Page 2, line 5 and wherever they occur in the Bill, --

for "any explosive substances"

substitute "any conventional explosive substance." (1)

Page 2, lines 14 and 15, --

after "compounds" insert --

"Nuclear explosive substance viz

Uranium 235 and Plutonium". (2)

Page 2, --

"(c) the conventional explosive substances

shall be deemed to include all the explosive

substances except the special category explosive

substances. (3)

SHRI L.K. ADVANI: Sir, he has already spoken. In fact, his entire speech was on his amendments. I have noted everything. I am sorry, I am not able to accept it.

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PROF. R.R. PRAMANIK : While replying to this Bill, hon. Home Minister mentioned about RDX, PTEN, ISI agents and Pakistani people. But in the Bill, there is no mention of ISI people or spies or Pakistani people. While giving the reply, the hon. Home Minister mentioned ISI, Pakistani agents and foreign nationals. There is a law for those who are against the country. There is a penal punishment, capital punishment for them. I have mentioned that. The punishment is there. The provision is there. Capital punishment is there for them who are against the nation. But while replying, the Home Minister mentioned about Pakistani agents, but in the Bill there is no mention of ISI and Pakistani agents. I am against terrorism created by Pakistan and the people across the border. But in the Bill, it is mentioned as "any man". RDX and PTEN are not available here. Any explosive can be manufactured here, can be obtained here, and any Indian citizen can act on that explosive. But in our country, there are terrorists and Naxalites. They are not Pakistani agents. They are not ISI people.

¸ÉÒ ±ÉÉ±É EÞò¹hÉ +Éb÷´ÉÉhÉÒ: ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ VÉÒ, <xÉEòÉ EòÉä<Ç ºÉÆ¶ÉÉävÉxÉ BäºÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè ÊVÉºÉ¨ÉäÆ Ê±ÉJÉÉ ½þÉä ÊEò +É<Ç.BºÉ.+É<Ç. VÉÉäc÷Éä* <xÉEòä VÉÉä ºÉÆ¶ÉÉävÉxÉ ½þèÆ, =ºÉ¨ÉäÆ BEò ¦ÉÒ BäºÉÉ ºÉÆ¶ÉÉävÉxÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè ÊVÉºÉ¨ÉäÆ Ê±ÉJÉÉ ½þÉä ÊEò +MÉ®ú EòÉä<Ç +É<Ç.BºÉ.+É<Ç. ´ÉÉ±ÉÉ BäºÉÉ Eò®úiÉÉ ½þè iÉÉä =ºÉä nùÆb÷ ½þÉäxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB, =ºÉä ¨ÞÉiªÉÖ-nùÆb÷ ½þÉäxÉÉ SÉÉÊ½þB*

We have not suggested that. Frankly, may I explain also that ISI or Pakistan has been sending all these arms and explosives into the country? Those who use it are not necessarily ISI people, but they are causing the same damage to the country as anyone else.

PROF. R.R. PRAMANIK : There is a law. There is a capital punishment for only possession of RDX and explosives. It comes under capital punishment. I think that will be misused.

SHRI L. K. ADVANI: It is not against ISI.

PROF. R.R. PRAMANIK : There is every possibility that this law may be misused politically to suppress the opponents. Even the British had misused the Explosives Act, 1889.

MR. CHAIRMAN :

Are you withdrawing your amendments?

PROF. R.R. PRAMANIK : I am not withdrawing my amendments on the subject. I am for punishment but not for capital punishment.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I shall now put all the amendments moved by Prof. R. R. Pramanik to the vote of the House.

The amendments were put and negatived.

MR. CHAIRMAN : The question is :

"That clause 2 stand part of the Bill."

The motion was adopted.

Clause 2 was added to the Bill.

Clause 3

PROF. R.R. PRAMANIK : I beg to move:

Page 2, line 19 and wherever they occur in the Bill,-

for "injury to property"

substitute "damage to property" (4)

Page 2, line 20,-

for "property"

substitute "damage to property" (5)

Page 2, lines 20 and 21,-

omit "with imprisonment for life, or" (6)

Page 2, line 26,-

omit "death, or" (7)

MR. CHAIRMAN : Now, I shall put amendment Nos. 4 to 7 moved by Prof. Pramanik to clause 3, to the vote of the House.

The amendments were put and negatived.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The question is:

"That clause 3 stand part of the Bill."

The motion was adopted.

Clause 3 was added to the Bill.

Clause 4

PROF. R.R. PRAMANIK : I beg to move:

Page 2, line 39,-

omit "with imprisonment for life, or" (8)

MR. CHAIRMAN: I shall put amendment No.8 moved by Prof. R.R. Pramanik to clause 4, to the vote of the House.

The amendment was put and negatived.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The question is:

"That clauses 4 and 5 stand part of the Bill."

The motion was adopted.

Clauses 4 and 5 were added to the Bill.

Clause 1, the Enacting Formula and the Title were added to the Bill.

¸ÉÒ ±ÉÉ±É EÞò¹hÉ +Éb÷´ÉÉhÉÒ: ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ¨ÉèÆ |ÉºiÉÉ´É Eò®úiÉÉ ½þÚÆ:

"ÊEò Ê´ÉvÉäªÉEò {ÉÉÊ®úiÉ ÊEòªÉÉ VÉÉB*"

MR. CHAIRMAN: The question is:

"That the Bill be passed."

The motion was adopted.

1913 hours

The Lok Sabha then adjourned till Eleven of the Clock on

Friday, December 18, 1998/Agrahayana 27, 1920 (Saka).

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