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1214 hours
SHRI SHYAM BIHARI MISHRA (BILHAUR): I beg to move :
"That this House do extend upto the last day of the last week of the Winter Session, l998 the time for presentation of the Report of the Joint Committee on Essential Commodities (Amendment) Bill, l998."
MR. SPEAKER: The question is :
"That this House do extend upto the last day of the last week of the Winter Session, l998 the time for presentation of the Report of the Joint Committee on Essential Commodities (Amendment) Bill, l998."
MR. SPEAKER: I think, the `Ayes' have it.
MR. SPEAKER: The Parliamentary Affairs Minister is on his leg.
SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA : On what? (Interruptions) There is no question of extension of time.
SHRI RAJESH PILOT : I am sorry. I was there. Shri Indrajit Gupta was there. We had rejected the amendment. So, this was referred to the Standing Committee by you, not by the House.
SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA : At the time of passing of the Bill, we all opposed it.
MR. SPEAKER: Let the Minister reply, please. Shri Basu Deb Acharia, please take your seat. Let the Minister reply.
SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA : They want to dilute the Bill. What is he going to reply? ... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Let the Minister reply.
PROF. P.J. KURIEN (MAVELIKARA): We do not want the Minister to reply. (Interruptions) The Government can say anything. We do not want reply from the Minister. You please see the rule.
MR. SPEAKER: Please understand they have asked for the extension of time only. You please go through the List of Business.
PROF. P.J. KURIEN : That is disputed here. Yes, for that Division is there. ... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Please understand they have asked for the extension of time.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA : They are diluting the Bill.
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SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA : There was enough time. It is before the House. The House may accept or reject it.
MR. SPEAKER: Shri Basu Deb Acharia, please understand. This is for seeking time for presentation of the Report. "That this House do extend up to the last day of the last week of the Winter Session, 1998...".
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SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA : Sir, when the Amendment was brought, we all opposed it...(Interruptions)
SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA: Sir, my suggestion is, you call a meeting in your Chamber.
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.This is within your powers,
not mine...(Interruptions)
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SHRI RAJESH PILOT : Yes, withdraw it...(Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: What is this? Please speak one by one.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA : Sir, when the amendment was brought, we all opposed it. What we wanted was that more stringent measures should be there in the Bill. They wanted to dilute it. They wanted to reduce the quantum of punishment...(Interruptions)
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SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA : We objected to that. The Joint Select Committee was constituted in the month of July...(Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: How can I hear you like this? Please try to understand. Please speak one by one. Let us hear Shri P. Shiv Shanker.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA : This Joint Select Committee did nothing for three months. Now they are again coming forth for extension of time.
MR. SPEAKER: Please, Shri Acharia. I have called Shri P. Shiv Shanker.
SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA : Sir, what we want is that the amendment should be withdrawn...(Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Please, I have called Shri P. Shiv Shanker.
... (Interruptions)
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SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : Sir, the House may recall that the Amendment Bill was an amendment to the 1981 measure which was brought and the Essential Commodities Act was sought to be diluted by amendments. Therefore, all of us opposed it at that time. When we opposed it, my friends came forth with the proposal and we agreed that all right, it could be referred to the Select Committee. He is now agreeing for the withdrawal. Though the Bill is the property of the House, my submission is, if the policy decision is taken by the Government to withdraw this Bill, then the entire House will agree. They can withdraw it and then the question of seeking the extension does not arise. Therefore, let him say that he withdraws it. He can then come forth with the proposal on Monday, it can be withdrawn and then the extension itself goes. The matter ends there. Why should he create a problem?
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<ºÉ Ê®ú{ÉÉä]õÇ Eòä +Ænù®ú ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : You have brought this Bill. What has it got to do with the Standing Committee? What are you talking about? ...(Interruptions)
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SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA: Sir, my suggestion is, you postpone it for Monday and you call a meeting in the evening....(Interruptions)
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SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : You cannot place the Speaker in an embarassing situation...(Interruptions)
Sir, it is a fact that this Committee has been constituted by the hon. Speaker. It has 30 Members and Members are from different political parties. Shri K.D. Sultanpuri is a Member. Shri Mohan Singh is also a Member. There is a Member from the CPI(M) also. Sir, we have....(Interruptions). I am replying. ....(Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: No, we are not going into the merits.
... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seat.
... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: This will not go on record.
(Interruptions)*
SHRI SATYA PAL JAIN : Sir, this Committee has already gone into everything. I want to bring to the notice of the House that the hon. Speaker has already sent in writing to the Committee that its term has been extended. Now if we decide otherwise, that will be a reflection on the Speaker also. Kindly do not do that. The Speaker has already allowed the extension. ....(Interruptions)
SHRI P. SHIV SHANKER : The Speaker has only reflected the will of the House in referring it to the Select Committee. ....(Interruptions)
PROF. P.J. KURIEN : Sir, I am on a point of order. In rule 367, the procedure regarding division is mentioned. ....(Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Shri Raghuvansh Prasad Singh, please take your seat.
_____________________________________________________________________________ * Not recorded
"(1) On the conclusion of a debate, the Speaker shall put the question and invite those who are in favour of the motion to say `Aye' and those against the motion to say `No'.
(2) The speaker shall then say: `I think the Ayes (or the Noes, as the case may be) have it'. If the opinion of the Speaker as to the decision of a question is not challenged, he shall say twice: `The ayes (or the Noes, as the case may be) have it' and the question before the House shall be determined accordingly."
Sir, the next part of the rule is more important. This is the relevant part.
"(3)(a) If the opinion of the Speaker as to the decision of a question is challenged, he shall order that the Lobby be cleared."
Sir, there is no escape route here because the motion is already moved and teh opinion of the Speaker challenged not by one Member but by many Members. According to the rules, there is no escape route other than putting the question for the vote of the House by division, if this rule has any sanctity.
MR. SPEAKER: Prof. Kurien, please understand.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI RAJESH PILOT : Sir, let me submit honestly. ....(Interruptions)
SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA: It was passed in your times. ....(Interruptions)
....(Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Shri P.C. Chacko please.
SHRI RAJESH PILOT : Sir, let me submit very honestly to the House. Looking at the mood of the House, I would request the hon. Minister to pay attention to my plea. The day discussion took place, we all and also their Members were against the amendment of 1951 Act amended in 1981. Everyone had the feeling that the Act was being diluted. Shri Indrajit Gupta and myself were sitting. Shri Shiv Shanker was also sitting there. They both got up and he assured them. When Shri Barnala asked me, I said that I felt that the Act was being diluted. He kept quite. After that, the decision had been taken to refer it to the Select Committee. In the debate yesterday, many Members have pointed out and I have pointed out clause by clause as to how they are trying to dilute the amending Bill. Why do they not withdraw this Bill if they have no intention to dilute it? But they want to dilute it and go ahead. ....(Interruptions) Now, the motion is before the House. ....(Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Shri K. Yerrannaidu.
SHRI K. YERRANNAIDU (SRIKAKULAM): Mr. Speaker, Sir ....(Interruptions)
SHRI AJIT JOGI (RAIGARH): Sir, we cannot discuss the merit of the Bill. The motion is before the House. It should be put to the vote. ...(Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Let me hear what he is saying. Shri Yerrannaidu.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI PRITHVIRAJ D. CHAVAN (KARAD): Sir, rules are absolutely clear. ....(Interruptions)
SHRI K. YERRANNAIDU : Sir, the House is not in order. Prof. Kurien is a very senior Member. ... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: I have allowed Shri Yerrannaidu.
SHRI AJIT JOGI : He was on a point of order. Let it be cleared.
SHRI K. YERRANNAIDU : Sir, there is a consensus because every party is in favour of withdrawal of this Act or this Amendment Bill. There is no necessity for this extension and they should withdraw it. You should call the Food and Civil Supplies Minister, who is the competent authority, to announce this. Then, we will discuss it later on. ... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Prof. Kurien, you have raised a point of order, but we are not discussing about the procedure in regard to division under Rule 367.
MR. SPEAKER: You are a senior Member, please listen to me.
PROF. P.J. KURIEN : Sir, you may also sit here. Rules are sacrosanct. Within the rules, you have put the question before the House. What I am saying is that you should go by the rules or you say that the rules are came be violated. I cannot agree with this.
MR. SPEAKER: Please understand that we are not discussing about the procedure under Rule 367 now.
PROF. P.J. KURIEN : The question has been put before the House.
MR. SPEAKER: It is for extension of time.
PROF. P.J. KURIEN : We do not agree with it. We are asking for a division. We are for that. Khuranaji, the merit of the question does not arise here. The question has been put before the House.
SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA: This is not our Motion; this is your Motion.
PROF. P.J. KURIEN : The merit of the question does not arise at all. The question has been put before the House. The House has to decide it. The merit of the question does not arise here. The question has been put before the House and the House has to decide it. The rules, with all respect to you, Sir, ...
MR. SPEAKER: Please understand, Prof. Kurien, that we are not discussing about the procedure. It is for extension of time of the Joint Committee.
... (Interruptions)
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PROF. P.J. KURIEN : Why do you not want to go by the rules? Sir, you should go by the rules. How is it that you do not want to go by the rules? I am only pointing out the rules. Please give your ruling.
MR. SPEAKER: Please understand that we are not discussing about the procedure in regard to division. Please understand that it is for extension of time.
PROF. P.J. KURIEN : Whatever it may be, the question has been put before the House. The Houses has to decide it. If somebody is challenging, the division has to be there.
MR. SPEAKER: Prof. Kurien, please understand.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA : Sir, I have a very valid point. Please allow me to speak.
SHRI MADHUKAR SIRPOTDAR (MUMBAI NORTH-WEST): Sir, you should allow me to speak. One Member has spoken thrice. ... (Interruptions)