If we have to consider the sickness or copability of the industries to manage their affairs and do well, we do not have only to see the industries in public sector or industries in cooperative sector or industries in private sector. Let us treat all these industries as national sector industries. Let us apply our mind to it.
The policy which we have followed in India is that of mixed economy. We do not want the private sector industries to go out or we do not want public sector industries also to go out. We do not want that the cooperative sector industries be closed down. We would certainly allow the private sector industries to increase in the area of their activities if there are private persons willing to take that risk and come forth and start the private industries. If there are cooperative industries, we would like to encourage the cooperative industries. And public sector industries also are necessary.
It is very interesting to examine what is the position in other developed countries - in the `Socialist' countries and the erstwhile `Communist' countries. My impression is that in the United States of America, they have the Government industries, the public sector industries, the cooperative industries as well as the private sector industries. The private sector industries in that country are very strong. The cooperative industries are not that strong. And the public sector industries are certainly working in areas which are using the advanced technology. The futuristic industries are there. If you go to the countries which call themselves as `Socialist' countries, you will find that the public sector industries are very strong. They do have some cooperative industries which are not very strong and the private sector industries are very weak. That means, the public sector, the cooperative sector and the private sector industries are existing in India. They are existing in countries which have accepted the principle of laissez faire, free economy, market economy or whatever you call it. And they are existing in the areas where the Socialist type of economy or the Communist type of economy is accepted. So, what are the conclusions that we can draw from these things? The private sector industries or the cooperative sector industries or the public sector industries can suffer. Why will they suffer?
Now, we shall have to examine why have they suffered? What can be done to see that they do not suffer? One of the reasons is that they have not kept pace with the modern technology which is developed. The industry once established may be modern. But after some time, it does not remain modern. If the process of modernisation of the industry is not continued, that industry is bound to suffer. The textile industry, the jute industry and the sugar industry were modern industries. But now those industries are suffering. Today, we have the automobile industry. Probably, it is prospering. But a time may come that if they do not modernise, they will also suffer. We have the oil industry which is doing well. It is mainly in the public sector. It is doing well because it is using the most modern technology. It is prospering. But if they do not keep pace with the technology, which is available all over the world and use that technology, they are also bound to suffer.
One of the things which have been happening in our country is that when they earn, they earn a lot of profit. The textile industry did earn a lot of profit; the jute industry did earn a lot of profit; the sugar industry of Maharashtra is earning a lot of profit but I am afraid that the sugar industry, especially in the cooperative sector, might go sick. Why would they go sick? It is because when they are earning, they are not saving for modernisation. When they have enough money with them, if they save and set aside a certain amount of money for modernisation, then they will not suffer in the future. But if they are earning and pocketing the money, using the money and if they are earning and diverting that money to the most modern industry and not using that money for purposes of modernisation of their industry, then they are likely to suffer. That is what has happened to the private sector industries ; that is what is going to happen to the cooperative sector industries and that is what is happening in the public sector industries as well.
There is scope for modernisation in the public sector industries. But then the procedure is such that they do not keep on modernising and because they do not keep on modernising, they suffer. If you talk to the people in the public sector industries and discuss the matter with them they would tell you that there is political interference in it. Again, if you talk to the politicians they would tell you that these industries are not being managed on a commercial basis and that is why they are suffering. I think, there is a grain of truth in both these arguments. There may be some political interference and there could also be mismanagement by the industry as well. Both these things have to be controlled.
They are asking for autonomy. I know and I had also the opportunity of dealing with public sector industries which had autonomy. I found that the industries which were having autonomy were not doing well and the industries which were having less autonomy were doing well. So, that is not the only issue. The aspect of scientific management of the public sector industries or the cooperative sector industries or the private sector industries has to be very very carefully examined. Let them have the best technology available; let them keep on updating that technology and also save for modernisation. The modern kind of management is available to help the industries.
There are two very important things in the public and private sector industries to which we just cannot refuse to look at. The public sector industries are answerable to the Parliament. They are answerable to the Minister and the Ministry and also are responsible to the public at large. They have no stakes and it is managed in a fashion in which it should not be managed. The private sector industries are not run in that way. There, the decisions are taken quickly and the decisions are taken in such a fashion that they can save money by going in a circuitous route and overstepping the laws and things like that. The public sector industries are required to compete with the private sector industries. Now, that creates a lot of problem.
Sir, my point was that let us look at these industries from these two angles. Today, we are talking about the free market economy and the market forces. I am one of those who is not opposed to the market forces per se. I am not saying that the market forces are not required; the private enterprises are not required and the private initiatives are not required. I am not going to say that. But I am of the firm view that today we need public sector industries and tomorrow, probably, we would need public sector industries more than we do it today. I could be asked to as to how I could dare to make a statement of this kind when the world is moving towards privatisation and not towards public sector. I do feel that if we are going to exist in the present circumstances, in the present situation, probably, the private sector industries will become very very important but we are not going to stand here. We are going to march in a different direction which has not yet been visualized by some of us.
If tomorrow the ocean resources are going to be used by the industry, the raw material coming from the ocean is going to be used by the industry, take it from me that for the next 50 years, the private sector industries are not going to enter into that area. It would be necessary to for the public sector industries to see that the resources which are there in the ocean are utilised. We do not realize that a country like India has an economic zone which is equal to two-thirds of our land mass and two-thirds of this land mass is having a lot of raw materials which are not being used.
It is virgin land. It is not being used because the private sector is not paying attention towards it, and the public sector is not attracted towards it today. But soon the time is going to come when we would be using resources of the ocean and at that time it would be the public sector industry which would initiate utilizing resources of the ocean. The same would be the case with respect to the utilization of potentials in Space. In all other countries, like America, Soviet Union, China and India also, there are both private sector and public sector industries which are engaged in the Space industry but that is an area which is unlimited. There is a limit to the land or the ocean but there is no limit to the Space and there is no limit to the potentials that are available in Space. If the human ingenuity is used and technology is developed, and if today we wish to tap the potentials available in the Space, we need a public sector industry. The private sector industry will not enter that area because it needs a lot of gestation period. The private sector will not enter an area where a lot of funds are required. The private sector will not enter an area where there is a lot of uncertainty, where there is no assurance of a profit. But for the good of the country as a whole or for the good of the society or the humanity as a whole these areas cannot just be left unattended. These areas cannot be allowed to go un-utilized. And, if these areas are to be utilized, we shall have to develop the public sector industry.
What is the situation in our country with regard to the development of technology? Who develops the technology? In America the technology is developed by the industry. Knowledge is developed by the university and technology is developed by the industry. They too have laboratories like our National Laboratory. In India, what is the position? If we have to develop a technology, no private sector industry is willing to spend money for developing the technology. Technology is going to be an industry in itself. Nothing is going to be more important or more expensive than the technology or the knowledge in the ultimate analysis. We have the raw materials. We have the machines to produce machines but technology is not available. And, if we have to develop technology, we would need a public sector's initiative, the Government's initiative and the society's initiative also and that is why I am very humbly submitting to the hon. Minister and to this House to have a policy in which we would mark the areas which would be occupied by the public sector industries up to a specific time. Let the public sector industries vacate those areas and let they be taken over by the private sector industries. If they have the strength, the muscles and the aspiration to do something in that area, we should allow them to take those areas. But there are new areas which are unattended, which have not yet attracted our attention. Those areas cannot go unattended. Let the public sector industries enter those areas. Let them show their mettle in those areas. Having shown their mettle in those areas, if again the private sector industries want to enter those areas, let them take over. There would be "
I think the hon. Minister can understand this couplet very well. "
There are many worlds beyond stars. There are many areas which could be attended to by the public sector industries. So, the policy of the Government of India, I am not saying the policy of only India but the policy of the humanity, should be to allow individuals to use their potentials to the maximum. Let the cooperatives also develop and use their potentials to the maximum. Let the public sector units develop inter-need area. Let there be the initiators in the new areas. If we have a policy of this kind, I think we would be able to see that the strength which is developed in the public sector is transferred to the private sector.
The public sector should enter new areas and develop new technologies. If you expand, you are not going to sink. If you do not expand, if you stop expanding, you are going to sink; the industry is going to sink and ultimately it is going to die. Expansion is the sign of existence. If you expand, things will happen.
I would say that the hon. Member has brought a very important resolution here. Attendance in the House may be thin; it may be a Private Member's Bill; it may have been taken up at the last moment; but it is a very important thing. If we have an occasion to discuss this matter at the time of discussing the Budget or on any other occasion; if some time is utilised to discuss this Bill, it is properly utilised. We need a policy which is very progressive; we need a policy which is not bound by the narrow ideologies the ideology of public sector, the ideology of private sector, the ideology of cooperative sector. Our ideology should be nationalistic ideology, humanistic ideology. The ideology should be as big as that and then only it will help.
Thank you.
(ends)
SHRI S. MALLIKARJUNIAH (TUMKUR): Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for giving me an opportunity to speak on this Private Members' Bill. I heartily congratulate Dr. Laxminarayan Pandey who had piloted a Private Members' Bill following which the Government had agreed to bring an exhaustive Bill. Secondly, Dr. Asim Bala has also piloted a very important Private Members' Bill. He also deserves to be heartily congratulated.
We have got one public undertaking in Tumkur known as HMT. It started 15-20 years back. It was doing very well. It was making a huge profit. The Managing Director and the Chairman who were at the helm of affairs of that undertaking were men of very high standards. They were the people who ran this industry very successfully. Unfortunately the Tumkur HMT and Bangalore HMT are being tagged on with the Nanital Watch Manufacturing Unit and also Srinagar Watch Manufacturing unit. As a consequence of this, the company is running in loss when the profit made by the company as a whole is taken.
There is keen competition to HMT watches. Some of the officers who were working in HMT earlier were allowed to retire. They were appointed in various other competitive watch manufacturing companies. As a result of this, the knowhow which was in the hands of the HMT became available to the other companies in the field. This has contributed to losses to a great extent. In the Tenth Lok Sabha, I brought this issue to the notice of the then Minister of Heavy Industries, Shrimati Krishna Sahi. I appraised her of the bad situation the HMT was in. She immediately appointed a Committee consisting of eminent people with deep knowledge in heavy industries. The Committee made its recommendations. Implementation of those recommendations had resulted in the revival of the company which was till that time virtually living on oxygen.
Unfortunately, HMT is once again sinking now. It has more than 20000 people who are dependent on it. Pujya Swamiji of Shivaganga Mutt has given more than 100 acres of very valuable land which was attached to the Mutt. Swamiji gave this land because a new industry is coming up just by the side of the Mutt. Unfortunately, that industry is sinking now. It needs huge inflow of funds.
I brought the matter to the notice of the hon. Minister of Heavy Industries. I have also written a letter requesting the authorities to at least sanction Rs.100 crore to this industry in the form of loan so that it could survive and pay back the amount in time. We request the hon. Minister to provide Rs.100 crore for this industry.
Why should the industry become sick? The reason is sufficient funds are not flowing well in time.
Manufactured goods reach the market and the same are sold. But they are not getting back the money immediately due to various reasons. There is a nexus between the officer and the dealer. For some short period and sometime for a longer period, money is left in the hands of the dealer and they treat it as capital and for further investment.
Efficient people shall have to be appointed as Managing Directors and as Chairmen. But unfortunately people are appointed on the basis of caste or relationship. This is one of the weaknesses. They should really search and choose the people who have been well-versed in the industrial management. If that is the case, I think, industries may not go sick. Accountability shall have to be fixed on the concerned authority.
When I was a Member of the Legislative Council and when Shri S.R. Bommai was a Central Minister for Industries, I asked him, why does he choose IAS officers as Managing Directors of these public sector undertakings, as if they know everything and they are the best persons to head the organisations? I have not at all received any reply for five to six years. When I personally met him, he said that there are a lot of secrets and I should not know them. This is the unfortunate state of affairs. Of course, it needs a lot of managerial tactics and good knowledge in business management. But unfortunately, the Government is not appointing the people who are in the field of industries. They should appoint well-trained person in trade or business as Managing Directors or Chairmen.
Unfortunately, the previous Government had not applied its mind very seriously in this direction. I think, the present Government will certainly take into account the suggestions made by us and consult the efficient people in the industries. Their knowledge should also be taken into consideration.
Government is giving subsidy but it is not received in time. This is one of the reasons for not releasing the manufactured goods to the market in time. Banks are not advancing money in time. Unnecessarily they ask the manufacturers and company people to come to their banks now and then. They consume a lot of time and in the process disbursement is delayed. There is a lot of pilferage and corruption at this stage. It is up to the Ministry of Heavy Industries to go very deep into this matter and to see that such industries are revived and those which are sick, should be brought to life. We should keep in mind that huge sums of money is spent in starting these industries.
Research and development work should also be provided. Corrupt officers and inefficient officers should be removed. There should be a Committee consisting of very efficient people in the field of industry. Their suggestions shall have to be taken into consideration. We should find out the units which are functioning very well, and which are the units that are very sick. They shall have to be assessed impartially. Huge funds shall have to be provided on loan basis and not on grant basis.