XII LOK SABHA DEBATES,   Session I 

Thursday, March 26, 1998 / Chaitra 5,  1920  (Saka)



Type of Debate: BUDGET (RAILWAYS)

Title:	Combined discussion on the Interim Budget (Railways) 1998-99; Demands
for Grants on Account (Railways) 1998-99; Supplementary Demands for Grants
(Railways), 1997-98 and Shri Nitish Kumar moved the resolution regarding
approval of recommendations in the Twelfth Report of  Railways Convention
Committee, 1991 and Third Report of the Railway Convention Committee, 1996.
The resolutions were adopted and all the Demands for Grants and Supplementary
Demands for Grants were voted in full.

TEXT :
 14.07 hrs.

MR. SPEAKER : Now  let  us  take  up  general  discussion  on  Interim  Budget
(Railways) and other items.

	Motions moved.

        
        "That  the  respective  sums not exceeding the amounts shown in
        the third column of the Order paper be granted to the President
        of India out of the Consolidated Fund of India, on account, for
        or towards defraying the charges during  the  year  ending  the
        31st  day  of  March,  1999, in respect of the heads of Demands
        entered in the second column thereof against Demand Nos.  1  to
        16".

        
        "That the Supplementary sums not exceeding the amounts shown in
        the third column of the Order paper be granted to the President
        of India out of the Consolidated Fund for India to  defray  the
        charges  that  will  come  in course of payment during the year
        ending the 31st day of March, 1998, in respect of the  head  of
        Demand  entered  in the second column thereof - Demand Nos. 10,
        13, 14 and 16".

.			..  (Interruptions)

SHRI G.M.  BANATWALLA (PONNANI):  Mr.  Speaker, Sir, I have a point  of  order
under Rule 210, 211 and 212.

	Sir,  I am here to request you to protect the rights of the Members of
the House.  When Demands for Grants are before the  House,  the  Members  have
certain rights  with respect to those Demands for Grants.  Any Member can give
notice of cut motions and these cut motions should be circulated.   Both  with
respect  to  the Demands for Grants (Railways) and also the Demands for Grants
(General), I had submitted a few cut motions and I submitted them in time.  We
were busy with the Budget till about two'o clock or so.  The notices  were  to
be given  before 3.15.  We took the trouble of going through all the pages and
everything.  With reference to demand  numbers,  pages,  this  and  that,  the
notices  were  submitted  by  me by 2.55, i.e., 20 minutes before the time the
notice could lapse.  I am sorry to point out this.  I approached you  also  in
your Chamber  with  a  request that they should be circulated.  The notices of
cut motions do not take any time.  We do not even move them in  the  House  by
standing.  We  only  send  our  slips.    And  I assured you also that if I am
allowed to move my cut motions, I will not  even  speak  on  the  Demands  for
Grants motion.    On  the  Demands for Grants, my cut motions will be there on
record.  Yet I am sorry that in spite of all this offer of cooperation, I find
that the cut motions have not been circulated and our rights are being erased.

	I request you, Sir, that even if a  few  minutes  are  taken  and  cut
motions  are circulated even a little later, then we should be allowed to move
those cut motions.  In case  our  cut  motions  were  found  inadmissible  for
certain  reasons,  when  I  had  even  approached you in your Chamber courtesy
demanded that I should have been informed so that I would not have  taken  the
time of the House for this purpose.


	My  request  is  that  those  cut  motions  be circulated and I may be
allowed to inform you of my intention to move those cut motions.

MR.  SPEAKER:  Shri Banatwalla, it is an Interim Budget.  Later  the  Minister
will bring  the  General  Budget.    At  that  time, you can take up those cut
motions.

			...  (Interruptions)

SHRI G.M.  BANATWALLA :  No, Sir.  Please see Rule 210 and 212.   Please  also
see Rule 214 clause (4).  I quote:

        
        "....vote on account shall be dealt with in the same way as  if
        it were a demand for grant."

        
	According to that a vote on account is dealt with in the  same  manner
as  a  demand  for  grant  in  a General Budget. It is a serious matter of the
rights of the Members. Earlier also we have moved cut motions. Even on vote on
account we have moved cut motions. It is just to place our point of  view  and
without  even  speaking  I said that we will do that. We are here to cooperate
with the Government. (Interruptions).

MR. SPEAKER:  Please hear me.  The procedure regarding moving  of  cut  motion
is:

        
        "Cut  motions  cannot  be  moved if there is no time for proper
        discussion  and  voting,  nor  can  they  be  moved  by  proxy.
        Intimation  from  a  Member  that  he would move cut motions to
        demands for grants  regarding  a  particular  Ministry  is  not
        enough for treating them as moved..."

        
Kindly cooperate with the    Chair.   You can move the cut motions later.  You
have already taken much time.  Please hear me. 

			... (Interruptions)

SHRI G.M.  BANATWALLA  :    There  are  precedents.  Earlier also we have been
moving the cut motions.  (Interruptions).

MR. SPEAKER:  Only two hours' time is allotted for this subject.

			... (Interruptions)

SHRI G.M.  BANATWALLA :  How much time is allowed that is not the  point.    I
have the right to move my cut motions.  (Interruptions).

MR. SPEAKER:  I am requesting the hon. Members to cooperate with me.

SHRI G.M.  BANATWALLA :  I will not be speaking.  I will only move them.  Even
then I  am  not  being  allowed  to  move  them.   These are the rights of the
Members.  Let the cut motions come on record today.  (Interruptions).

MR. SPEAKER: At this juncture again I am  requesting  the  Members  to  kindly
cooperate with the Chair because there is no time. These are financial matters
and we have to complete the business today.

			... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: We have to complete the business today. Please hear me.  All  the
Party  Leaders  have  agreed  for  this  in the Leaders meeting itself. Please
cooperate with me.

			... (Interruptions)

SHRI G.M.   BANATWALLA   :      Under   what   rule   are   you   disallowing?
(Interruptions).

SHRI MUKUL  WASNIK  BALKRUSHNA  :  Sir, the business will have to be completed
only by following the Rules of Procedure of this House.   The  rights  of  the
Members will  have  to  be  protected.    The  rules will have to be followed.
(Interruptions).

MR. SPEAKER:  At certain times we have to adjust to rules also.  Yesterday  we
have agreed to it.

			... (Interruptions)

SHRI G.M.  BANATWALLA :  I am on it because it is  a  serious  matter  of  the
rights of the  Members.    I have a right to move my cut motion.  I say that I
will not speak on my cut motion.  (Interruptions).

SHRI ACHARIA  BASUDEB  :    Sir,  Members'  rights  have  to   be   protected.
(Interruptions).

MR. SPEAKER:  Shri Acharia, yesterday in the Leaders meeting we have agreed to
pass them because of lack of time.  Please cooperate with the Chair.

			... (Interruptions)


SHRI MUKUL  WASNIK  :    The  rights  of  the  Members  should  be  protected.
(Interruptions).

SHRI BASUDEB ACHARIA :  We agreed to finish it within two  hours.    But  that
does not mean that cut motions should not be allowed.  (Interruptions).

MR.  SPEAKER:  Please  cooperate with the Chair. Unnecessarily the time of the
House is being wasted.

			... (Interruptions)

SHRI G.M.  BANATWALLA  :  This is a wrong procedure.  You are once and for all
erasing the rights of the Members.  (Interruptions).   No,  this  is  a  wrong
procedure.

MR. SPEAKER: Shri Banatwalla, please cooperate with me.

			... (Interruptions)

SHRI G.M.  BANATWALLA :  This is a wrong procedure.  (Interruptions).

MR.  SPEAKER :    Shri Banatwalla, please cooperate with me.  Yesterday we all
agreed to it.

SHRI G.M.  BANATWALLA :  Sir, I am gong to the extent of saying  that  I  will
not speak a word on the Demands.  ...(Interruptions)

MR.  SPEAKER :  Please cooperate.

SHRI G.M.  BANATWALLA  :    We are cooperating.  You please cooperate with me.
...(Interruptions)

MR.  SPEAKER :  Shri Basudeb  Acharia,  you  are  a  senior  Member.    Please
cooperate.

SHRI BASUDEB ACHARIA :  Sir, we have agreed to finish it in two hours.

SHRI G.M.  BANATWALLA :  Sir, you please stand by the rules.  Otherwise let us
tear them and throw them away.  ...(Interruptions) There are certain rules.

MR.  SPEAKER :  You can move a number of  cut  motions  at  the  time  of  the
General Budget.  You can move them at that time.  Please cooperate.

SHRI G.M.  BANATWALLA :  Sir, it is our right.  This is not cooperation.   You
should protect our rights.  ...(Interruptions)

MR.  SPEAKER :  I am once again requesting you to please cooperate with me.

SHRI G.M.  BANATWALLA (PONNANI):  What cooperation?  ...(Interruptions)

SHRI BASUDEB ACHARIA :  Sir, but that does not mean that  the  Members  should
not be allowed to move the cut motions.  There was no such agreement.

MR.  SPEAKER :  you can move the cut motions at the time of the General Budget
and there is ample time also.

SHRI BASUDEB ACHARIA :  Sir, we agreed for completing it within two hours.

SHRI G.M.   BANATWALLA :  Sir, we will pass it without a word spoken as far as
I am concerned.  ...(Interruptions)

SHRI BASUDEB ACHARIA :  Sir, two hours are allotted for  the  Interim  Railway
Budget.  ...(Interruptions)

MR.  SPEAKER :  Shri Acharia, please cooperate.

SHRI G.M.  BANATWALLA :  Sir, this is most unfortunate.  ...(Interruptions)

MR.  SPEAKER :  I am not allowing you.  I have allowed only Shri K.  Rosaiah.

SHRI G.M.  BANATWALLA  :    Sir,  the rules are not followed.  The rights of a
Member to move a cut motion are being denied under no provision of rules.

MR.  SPEAKER :  Shri Banatwalla, please cooperate.

SHRI G.M.  BANATWALLA :  Sir, I tell you that I am not going to  speak  on  my
cut motions.   I will only move them.  ...(Interruptions) Sir, you are erasing
the rights of the Members.

MR.  SPEAKER :  Please cooperate with the  Chair  because  it  was  agreed  to
yesterday in the Leaders' Meeting.

SHRI G.M.  BANATWALLA :  Sir, it is not cooperation.  It is full operation  of
the rights of the Members.  ...(Interruptions)

MR.  SPEAKER :  You can move them later.  Yesterday you have all agreed to it.

SHRI MUKUL WASNIK :  Sir, what sort of a ruling is this?  ...(Interruptions)

SHRI ROSAIAH KONIJETI:  Mr.  Speaker, Sir ...(Interruptions)

MR.  SPEAKER :  Shri Banatwalla, you can move a number of cut motions  at  the
time of  the  General Budget.  I will give you time at the time of the General
Budget.  I will fully cooperate.

SHRI G.M.   BANATWALLA  :    Sir,  under what provision or rule number are you
disallowing me?  ...(Interruptions)

SHRI ROSAIAH KONIJETI :  Sir, I am a new Member.  I have  informed  the  Chair
also that  I  would  like to speak in my mother tongue, Telugu.  So, with your
permission, I would like to speak in Telugu.  ...(Interruptions)

MR.  SPEAKER :  I request the Members to cooperate.

SHRI E.  AHAMED  (MANJERI):    Sir,  it is not correct.  The agreement was for
completing it in two hours.

SHRI G.M.  BANATWALLA :  Sir, you used your right.

SHRI E.  AHAMED :  Sir, I only want to ask one thing.    It  was  not  decided
yesterday that  cut motions will not be moved.  If there is no time for proper
discussion, why should the Chair call for a discussion?  Please give  time  to
all the Members to speak.  ...(Interruptions)

MR.  SPEAKER :  The Leader of the Opposition is on his legs.  Let him speak.

SHRI SHARAD PAWAR (BARAMATI) :  Mr.  Speaker, Sir, the point of  order  raised
by hon.   Shri  Banatwalla  is  a  correct  point.    There is a provision and
definitely every Member has got that right.  But,  simultaneously,  we  should
not forget  that  this  is  an exceptional and abnormal time.  We have to pass
this Vote on Account before a particular date.

SHRI G.M.  BANATWALLA :  We are here to pass it.

MR.  SPEAKER :  You please hear him.

SHRI SHARAD PAWAR  :    Sir,  it has to go to the Rajya Sabha also.  Otherwise
there will be a financial crisis in the country.

SHRI G.M.  BANATWALLA :  There is no question of a  financial  crisis  in  the
country.  I  have  a  right to move my cut motion.  That is all that is there.
It does not take the time of the House.  I even do not demand a right to  even
speak on it.  ...(Interruptions)

SHRI SHARAD PAWAR   :      I   appeal   to   hon.    Member  Shri  Banatwalla.
...(Interruptions)

SHRI KHARABELA SWAIN (BALASORE) :  I want to just ask that if his right is  so
sacrosanct, then why is he encroaching upon the time of the entire House?  Why
is a senior leader doing like this?  ...(Interruptions)

SHRI MUKUL WASNIK  MUKUL  :    Sir,  this  is  not correct.  The Leader of the
Opposition is speaking.  It is certainly not the way.  ...(Interruptions)  You
please convince your Members.  ...(Interruptions)

SHRI SHARAD PAWAR  :    I  think  you  want  a detailed discussion.  I have no
objection.  Let   Shri   Banatwalla   move   them.      Let   us   go   ahead.
...(Interruptions) This is not the way.  ...(Interruptions)

SHRI G.M.  BANATWALLA  :    Sir,  I only want to move my cut motions.  That is
all.  Let my cut motions be circulated and taken as moved.  That is all.

SHRI SHARAD PAWAR :  The ruling  party  wants  a  discussion.    The  Treasury
Benches want a discussion.  There is a request from the Treasury Benches.  So,
we have no objection.  ...(Interruptions)

THE MINISTER  OF  HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI L.K.ADVANI) :  I would request the Leader
of the  Opposition  to  continue.    I  am  sorry  that  one  of  our  Members
interrupted.  ..(Interruptions)

MR.  SPEAKER :  Shri Banatwalla, the Minister is on his legs.

			...  (Interruptions)

SHRI G.M.  BANATWALLA :  Sir, which Minister is on his legs?  He is the Leader
of the  Opposition  and  not  the  Minister.   Of course, he has the rank of a
Minister.  That is a different thing.  ...(Interruptions)

SHRI SHARAD  PAWAR  :    Shri  Banatwalla,  I  think  we  should  accept  this
suggestion.  Secondly this will not be treated as a precedent and we know that
everybody is quite serious about the preservation and protection of the rights
of every  Member.   But knowing well the peculiar position, I think we have to
cooperate and we have to close this chapter as early as possible.  We have  to
clear both the Budgets and that too today.  ...(Interruptions)

			...  (Interruptions)

SHRI P.C.  CHACKO (IDUKKI):  We want a ruling from the Chair that it would not
go as a precedent.  ...(Interruptions)

SHRI MUKUL WASNIK  :  Hon.  Speaker should say that this will not be quoted as
a precedent.  ....(Interruptions).  The Chair should give an assurance.

AN HON.  MEMBER:  What ruling should he give?  He is very right on that.  That
ruling must come from you.

MR.  SPEAKER:  It will not be taken as a precedent.

SHRI E.  AHAMED :  It is a right of the Member.  A right of the Member  cannot
be taken away.  No rule has permitted to take away any right of any Member.

MR.  SPEAKER:   I am requesting you that as a special case, yesterday, all the
party leaders agreed to it.   That  is  why  I  am  requesting  you.    Please
cooperate. 

SHRI P.C.  CHACKO :   This matter is different.  Kindly listen to us.  You may
please give a ruling.  Otherwise, whatever the parties  are  deciding  in  the
Chamber  will  curtail the privileges of the Members which we cannot agree to.
You please give us a ruling.  We will agree by that.  ....(Interruptions).

MR.  SPEAKER:  This is not going to be a precedent.

SHRI P.C.  CHACKO :  What matters is your ruling.

MR.  SPEAKER:  I  am  giving  it.    This  is  not  a  precedent.    This is a
....(Interruptions).

SHRI E.  AHAMED :  The only thing is that there is no proper time for  a  full
discussion and voting.    Here,  there is voting.  There may not be time for a
proper discussion, but we cannot just rule out a voting.  Voting is  the  most
important thing.    Since there is no time for a proper discussion and voting,
this has been taken away, Sir.  What is the argument?  We cannot agree to that
argument.


MR. SPEAKER: This is not going to be a precedent. Because  of  lack  of  time,
only  yesterday all the party leaders have decided. That is why, we are asking
the ....(Interruptions).

SHRI G.M.  BANATWALLA :  We will definitely pass it within the timeframe.

MR. SPEAKER: Since we have to pass the Bill today itself,  there  is  lack  of
time.

SHRI BASUDEB ACHARIA :  We have not decided this.  What we have decided is  to
conclude it within two hours.

SHRI G.M.  BANATWALLA  :    I say that I will not speak on it.  I came to your
Chamber and assured you.  I  say  only  one  thing  that  my  cut  motions  be
circulated and taken  as moved.  That is all that I say.  How does this affect
you?

MR. SPEAKER: Please cooperate.

	Now, Shri Rosaiah will speak.

			... (Interruptions)

SHRI E.  AHAMED :  You are not cooperating.  That is why, he is  saying  this.
....(Interruptions).

SHRI G.M.   BANATWALLA  :  Please cooperate with me because I cannot even walk
out against the decision of the Chair.  That is my difficulty.  So,  you  have
to cooperate with me and take my cut motions as moved, Sir.

MR. SPEAKER: At the time of general discussion, I will give you lot of time. I
am assuring you. I am requesting you to please cooperate. 

		....(Interruptions).

SHRI G.M.  BANATWALLA :  That is not the point, Sir.  ...


SHRI ROSAIAH KONIJETT  (NARASARAOPET):  Mr.  Speaker, Sir, I have informed the
Chair that Iwould like to sp;eak in my mother tonuge Teluge.   So,  with  your
permission I would like to speak in Telugu.

	Mr.  Speaker,  Sir,  the Hon.  Minister for Railways has presented the
Interim Budget (Railways) for the year 1998-99 to the House.  For want of time
a regular Budget containing all the details was not presented now.  A vote  on
Account  Bill,  1998  which  will  be  effective  for  four  months  has  been
introduced.

SHRI G.M.  BANTWALLA:    I  express  my  dissatisfaction.     I   am   totally
dissatisfied.   That  is  not the way in which the Chair should cooperate with
the House.  Sir..(Interruptions)..There is no realisation of the anguish.

MR.  SPEAKER:  Nothing to go on record except what Shri Rosaiah will speak.

...(Interruptions)**

MR.  SPEAKER:  What is this?  Nothing willk go on record.

(Interruption)

MR.  SPEAKER:  Please conclude, Shri Rosaiah.

SHRI ROSAIAH KONIJETI:  Sir, there is nothing novel or  new  in  the  Vote  on
Account Bill  which  has been preented to the House yesterday.  No progressive
policies of which we can feel proud of are there in the Interim Budget.  It is
just a bench mark, routine budget.  It has no  extraordinary  features.    The
present  Government  took  over very recently and there was no sufficient time
available at their disposal and hence they  have  come  out  with  an  Interim
Budget.   Mkuch  cannot  be  expected  in this Budget, but I do hope when this
Government presents a full  fledged  Budget,  there  will  be  a  novelty  and
direction in  it.    I  hope it would reflect the hopes and aspirations of the
people.




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