(Interruptions)*

MR. SPEAKER: Please sit down.

(Interruptions) *

MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seat.

(Interruptions) *

MR. SPEAKER: This will not go on record.

(Interruptions) *

MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seat.

(Interruptions) *

* Not recorded.

SHRI G.M. BANATWALLA : If we do not go back to the time of Golwalkar, let us take up the BJP's manifesto. The BJP's manifesto was released on 3rd February, 1998. ... (Interruptions) This rank fascist anti-secular manifesto confirms the ideologically anti-secular character of the BJP. Now, we have the anti-secular manifesto of the BJP as late as 3rd February, 1998. And then comes this NAG -- National Agenda for Governance. ... (Interruptions) Overnight they tried to earn the posture of a secular Government. What a situation of unreality! A party that does not believe in the rule of law, a party that deliberately flouted all the orders of even the Supreme Court of India, a party which has brought about the Babri Masjid with pride comes camouflaged as a secular element ... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Please wind up.

SHRI G.M. BANATWALLA : Sir, I have not started at all.

MR. SPEAKER: There is no time.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI G.M. BANATWALLA : Sir, what is this that they are doing? Please control them so that I can conclude....(interruptions)...Sir, I seek your protection.

MR. SPEAKER: Definitely, but please conclude.

SHRI G.M. BANATWALLA : I may please be allowed to speak in this House.

MR. SPEAKER: Please conclude now.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI G.M. BANATWALLA : The Government lacks both ideological and pragmatic coherence. This is the situation over here. We are told that contentious issues, namely, building up a Ram temple at the site of the Babri Masjid, the issues of Kashi and Mathura, the scrapping of Article 370 and forcible imposition of a uniform civil code have been left out. Yet, they have not been jettisoned by the BJP. The BJP is a member of the Sangh Parivar and all these items are there in their agenda. How can a Government headed by one from the Sangh Parivar deal effectively with its own colleagues who are having this agenda? ...(interruptions)

MR.SPEAKER: Please conclude.

SHRI G.M. BANATWALLA : If I will be given peace by this House, then I will be able to complete. I should be allowed to speak....(interruptions)...As I said, the NAG - the National Agenda for Governance - says that it is committed to the economic and educational development of the minorities and will take effective steps in that regard....(interruptions)...But it is silent on the Minorities Financial Development Corporation, the Urdu University, Abul Kalam Azad Educational Fund and implementation of the Places of Worship Special Provisions Act, 1991...(interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Please conclude.

... (Interruptions)

SHRI G.M. BANATWALLA: But how? I am not able to speak. You must protect me...(interruptions)...We are told that they will provide legal protection to the existing percentages of reservation in educational institutions at the State level. But what about the services? Nothing has been told about the services...(interruptions)

Further it says that they will take effective steps to create a riot-free order. But what about the schemes of statutory compensation for loss of life and property in communal disturbances? What about the need to take action to bring to book the culprits of major communal disturbances like the ones of Moradabad in 1980, Nellie in 1983, Hashimpura in 1987, Bhagalpur in 1989 and Mumbai in 1992?....(interruptions)

Sir, there is a total sense of unreality with respect to this Government. Therefore, I oppose the Motion totally and completely. In the interests of secular democracy of this country, I appeal even to the allies of the BJP like the Shiv Sena to reconsider their decision to go with the Government....(interruptions)

I have so many things to say but in view of the turbulence in the House and your repeated directions, I resume my seat with a vociferous opposition to the Motion moved by the Prime Minister...(interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: There is an announcement.

... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: At 5.30 P.M., we have to take up Matters under Rule 377. If the House agrees, we will take it up now. Otherwise, we will take it up later.

... (Interruptions)

SEVERAL HON. MEMBERS: On Monday.

SHRI L. K. ADVANI: With the permission of the House, let us leave Matters under Rule 377. (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: So, we will take it up on Monday.

... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: I have not called you.

SHRI TATHAGATA SATPATHY : Sir, I have a point of order. ... (Interruptions) I want to say something. ... (Interruptions) Please listen to me. ... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record. Now, Shri Purnao Agitok Sangma will speak.

(Interruptions) *.

MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seat.

* Not recorded

SHRI PURNO A. SANGMA (TORA): Mr. Speaker, Sir, at the very outset, may I appeal, through you, to the House to relax for some time? This is the fifth Motion of Confidence during the last 22 months. I do not know how many more Motions of Confidence would be coming up before the House in the near future. But, I think, I am quite sure that there could, at least, be one more in less than one year. ... (Interruptions)

In the last four consecutive elections to the Lok Sabha, that is, the Ninth, the Tenth, the Eleventh and the Twelfth Lok Sabhas, we had witnessed a fractured Parliament. No party could get a clear mandate. Yesterday and today, the House has spent a lot of time in trying to argue as to who and which party had the mandate to rule. I do not think there is any point in debating about the mandate as such. The fact remains that because of this fractured Parliament for the last few years, we have been witnessing instability in this country. I think, the country, the Parliament, particularly the political parties, should sit up and find out the reasons why for the last four elections to the Lok Sabha, the people could not - I do not want to use `did not' - give a clear mandate. Is it a fault of the people? Is it a fault of the system? Is it a fault of the political parties? Is it a fault of political leadership?

Sir, I think, this is a matter which the country needs to go into. I have tried to analyse the causes of instability, the reasons for people not being able to make up their minds. But I do not think, I have time enough to discuss everything here.

One thing we have seen and we have found that in the last few years -

whether it is my Party, or whether it is the BJP or whether it is any other political Party - it seems that ideologies are getting relegated to the background. Today, politics is getting polarised around individuals, rather strong individuals and thereby the political Parties, particularly the national Parties are getting more and more fragmented. Even on the eve of the last General Elections we witnessed the fragmentation of political Parties. Out of the Congress, came the Trinamool Congress; out of the Janata Dal, came the Rashtriya Janata Dal and the Biju Janata Dal. We saw the emergence of the Lok Shakti headed by Shri Hegde and the Rashtriya Janata Party headed by Shri Vaghela... (Interruptions) Please listen. I am talking very seriously. I really do not know whether the fragmentation of the national Parties is a healthy trend for this country. I know there are valid reasons for that. This has happened for valid reasons. But we have to think whether it is good for us in the long run.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, in the Eleventh Lok Sabha we had 29 political Parties represented in this House. In this Twelfth Lok Sabha 41 political Parties are represented in this House! It may be 42. There may be 43 very soon or there could be 44. We do not know. I personally think that it is not good for the country. We have to think as to how we could consolidate ourselves.

Today, the national Parties are more or less getting irrelevant. This is not what I am saying today. This is what was being said by Shri Vajpayee as the Leader of the Opposition. I was the Presiding Officer of this House then. This is what Shri Pramod Mahajan had been saying. I remember the leaders of the BJP ridiculing the United Front Government saying, `What a Government'! There should not be a khichri Government. An independent Member was being made a Cabinet Minister; a single Member Party was being made a Cabinet Minister! The BJP out of the Government; the Congress out of the Government; the CPI(M) out of the Government - it was a very valid argument which was put forward in this House by the BJP leaders last time. But what has happened today? Last time we had a 13 Party Government and today we are having an 18 Party Government. What an improvement! I do not know whether this is a healthy trend for the country.

I remember having read a very interesting story. During the Elections two women had gone to fetch water and were discussing about politics.

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I could imagine the agony which the respected Prime Minister, Shri Vajpayee, had undergone immediately after the elections. He must have gone through a great agony. After having secured about 179 seats in the House, Shri Vajpayee could do nothing. I am an admirer of Shri Vajpayee. I was happy when he came out and said that he was not staking claim to form the Government unless he had the required number. From where would the Members come? Members would come from the small parties. Somebody referred to the love letter which Shri Vajpayee was expecting, "

ÊSÉ_Ò +É ®ú½þÒ ½þè*"

What an agony was it for a leader of the largest political party! A great amount of pressure, a great amount of influence had been made by small parties, maybe a 12-Member party. It is they who are deciding the future of India. I would like to know whether it is a healthy trend.

AN HON. MEMBER: So what?

SHRI PURNO A. SANGMA : It has not happened with him only. It can happen with us also. I am only trying to analyse the political trend that is emerging in this country and all the political parties will have to examine as to why this is happening. Why the people are not able to give a clear mandate? I think we are losing credibility.

An elderly man came to see me. He told me a very interesting thing. He said that during his days, politicians used to go to the party headquarters to seek tickets but today instead of individuals going to the party headquarters, the political parties are running after the individuals for making them accept their party tickets! He asked, where our country was going. He said that during his time people used to go to the party High Command and ask them to give ticket from a particular constituency. On being asked by the High Command as to why he wanted ticket from a particular constituency, he used to say that he knew the people of that particular constituency and hence had every chance of winning the election. He said, today a politician goes to the party headquarters and ask them not to give him ticket from a particular constituency because people there know him. He requests the party high command to give him a ticket from a constituency where people have not seen him and do not know him. I think we are losing our credibility.

We had the Special Session of Parliament here wherein we did discuss about all these things. We did resolve ourselves about criminalisation of politics, about nexus between politicians and criminals, about corruption, about probity in public life, and I do not want to go into all that. We are talking about stability today. But I am not satisfied with stability alone. We can have stable Governments, we have had stable Governments. In my State Meghalaya, we have a stable Government because in the sixty-Member House we have 28 Ministers, one Speaker and one Deputy-Speaker - 30 members in total. How will the Government fall? It is going to be a stable Government.

SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE (BOLPUR): There are 93 Ministers in Uttar Pradesh.

SHRI PURNO A. SANGMA : My neighbouring State Arunachal Pradesh has a sixty-Member House and there are 35 Ministers, one Speaker and one Deputy-Speaker - 37 members in total. It will have a stable Government. It is going to be a stable Government. Somnath Da has already referred to Uttar Pradesh. With 95 Ministers, it is going to be a stable Government there. But, is it enough for our country to have a stable Government if that Government does not govern? I think, the important thing today is not merely stability. It is good governance which is the issue today. I am not worried about the stability of Shri Vajpayee's Government. I am only worried about the governance of this Eighteen-Party Government. How are they going to govern? How are they going to govern with their pre-poll manifestos of respective allies, with their post-poll National Agenda for Governance and with their unstated post-poll packages based on understandings? Dr. Joshi has denied that there is a hidden agenda. I am coming to their hidden agenda because we know it. I really do not want to take much time of the House. I will quickly go into it.

Dr. Joshi has denied that there is a hidden agenda. But I have a suspicion -- I may be excused for that -- that they, perhaps, have a hidden agenda within their National Agenda. If it is not so, the Prime Minister can deny it. I am only talking about my personal suspicion. In para 29 of their National Agenda, which speaks about `genuine secularism', they speak about a `just civil order'. I do not know what the meaning of this `just civil order' is. To me, it sounds like a common civil code. In para 17 of their National Agenda, they speak about creation of a `national reconstruction corps' under the chapter, `Harnessing Yuva Shakti'. I really do not understand what the meaning of this `national reconstruction corps' is. To me, it sounds like RSS, to be introduced in every school of India. That is the programme. Please excuse me, if I am wrong. I will be very happy, if I am wrong.

KUMARI UMA BHARATI: Yes, you are wrong.

SHRI PURNO A. SANGMA : I am also not able to understand the reference in para 4 under the chapter `Economy' to `respect of cow and its progeny'.

What is that? What is the meaning of it? I only want to know whether there is a hidden agenda. Outside the House, whether you deny it or not, the country knows. What understanding they have with Kumari Mamata Banerjee or Kumari Jayalalitha, that need not be said. I am not going into that.

The National Agenda promises - I will not take much time - food for all, water for all, health for all, housing for all, education for all and employment for all. What is the timeframe? It is five years. In five years, they promise food for all, water for all, health for all, housing for all, education for all and employment for all. Everything is promised, for everybody it is promised. What a Utopian document it is! My question is, Mr. Prime Minister, how are you going to achieve these objectives? Where are the resources for that? If you do not have the resources, how is your Government going to mobilise those resources to achieve everything for everybody? No Government confident of running the Government for five years can promise such a thing. It is only a Government which is not confident of running the Government for five years, that Government alone can make such a promise.

Since I am not able to cover all the points, I want to come to a very important subject, that is, education. Sir, I have personally been advocating for many years that a solution to most of our problems lies in education, whether you talk of population control or anything.

Take poverty eradication alone. Therefore, I have been advocating on the floor of this House that as against 3.9 per cent of the GDP that has been earmarked for education, it should be made a minimum of ten per cent. That has been my personal remark.

Shri P.V. Narasimha Rao took a decision that from the Ninth Plan onwards at least six per cent of the GDP shall be earmarked for education. I was very happy with that.

Shri Vajpayee, I do not know. Your National Agenda promises to gradually reach the level of six per cent. What is the meaning of this gradually reaching six per cent mark? I had an impression that six per cent of the GDP has already been earmarked in the Ninth Five Year Plan. It has already been proposed in the Ninth Five Year Plan. That was my understanding. But, now, your Government says that you promise to gradually reach the level of six per cent. May I appeal, once again, that you may not talk about gradually achieving that. Earmark six per cent of the GDP in the Ninth Five Year Plan for education and that alone will solve most of our problems.

The National Water Policy, of course, Dr. Joshi has denied that, but to me it appears that the National Water Policy is a cover for the AIADMK's claim for Cauvery and Periyar water.

18.00 hrs.

That is how I feel it. You may deny it. I wish you well in that. I wish you success in solving this problem. But having known the South Indian water, which is as mighty and as sacred as the Ganga, I am only afraid that the Cauvery and the Periyar water issues may wash away your Government, probably it is submerged! ...(Interruptions)

THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF RAILWAYS AND MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (SHRI RAM NAIK): Mr. Speaker, Sir, now it is six o'clock. The time of the House will have to be extended. ...(Interruptions)


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