<b>XI LOK SABHA DEBATES, <i> Session V (Monsoon) </i> </b> XI LOK SABHA DEBATES, Session V (Monsoon) Friday, August 01, 1997 / Shravana 10, 1919 (Saka)
Type of Debate: NO-DAY-YET-NAMED MOTION (RULE-198)
Title: Discussion on the motion moved by Shri Sharad Pawar on the 29th July, 1997 regarding atrocities committed on dalits in Mumbai, Nagpur and other places in the state of Maharashtra and in other parts of the country. TEXT : 14.44 hrs.MR. CHAIRMAN : The House may now take up the next business, that is, further discussion on the Motion moved by Shri Sharad Pawar.
SHRI RAM NAIK: On a point of information, I want to know whether this debate will conclude today or not. When will the Home Minister reply? If we are given the schedule, it will be better for us to inform the Members so that the Members can be here.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Naik, I thank you very much because you have given me the opportunity to explain the position from the Chair. There are still fourteen Members to speak on this issue. Today is the Private Members' Business day and at 3.30 p.m. we will take up discussion on Private Members' Resolutions. If the House agrees that the remaining fourteen Members will also speak today, I think, there is no possibility of the hon. Home Minister to reply today.
THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA): After 6 p.m., I am ready to reply to the debate.
MR. CHAIRMAN: That list will not be complete by that time, I think. Fourteen speakers cannot complete by 6 p.m. It will be taken up again on Monday.
SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN (MUMBAI - NORTH EAST): Sir, should we take that the reply by the hon. Home Minister would be on Monday?
MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, on Monday.
SHRI NARAYAN GAJANAN ATHAWALAY (MUMBAI NORTH CENTRAL):
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There is nothing binding on them.
... (Interruptions)
MR. CHAIRMAN: Once a Motion is moved...
... (Interruptions)
SHRI A.C. JOS (IDUKKI): These people still feel that Shri Sharad Pawar is the most powerful man in Maharashtra. (Interruptions)
MR. CHAIRMAN: Please listen to me.
... (Interruptions)
MR. CHAIRMAN: Once a Motion is moved, the Motion belongs to the House. It is not that what you say.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI RAM NAIK : You are perfectly right that he need not be present but at least the Home Minister or the Minister of State for Home Affairs must be present.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Some Minister is here.
SHRI RAM NAIK : No. Where is the Minister of State for Home Affairs?
MR. CHAIRMAN: I think he is taking note. I think you are taking note of it.
SHRI RAM NAIK (MUMBAI NORTH): It is not the question of taking note. The Propriety demands and we can understand if the Home Minister is not there because he is busy. But what about the Minister of State for Home Affairs? Why are they taking the discussion so casually?
MR. CHAIRMAN: So, Propriety demands that someone from the Home Ministry should have been here.
Shri Pramothes Mukherjee.
SHRI MADHUKAR SARPOTDAR (MUMBAI NORTH-WEST): Please excuse me. The contention of our Members is not that as to why they are not present. They are under the impression that since the Mover being not present here, he might have withdrawn the present Motion and gone away. That is the impression being created in the minds of our people.
MR. CHAIRMAN: You are right in pointing out this. I am thankful to your Members because they are very much alert. That is good.
15.00 hrs.
This is an organised attack upon democracy, upon the democratic fabric of the Constitution. So, we condemn this situation.
The most unfortunate incident...(Interruptions).
SHRI ANANT GUDHE (AMRAVATI): Sir, I am on a point of order. There is no quorum in the House.
MR. CHAIRMAN : The bell is being rung-
Now, there is a quorum. The hon. Member, Shri Pramothes Mukherjee may continue his speech.
SHRI PRAMOTHES MUKHERJEE: Thank you, Sir. After all, the Quorum is made.
MR. CHAIRMAN : You thank the Members, Shri Anil Basu and others, who came at last to complete the quorum.
SHRI PRAMOTHES MUKHERJEE : Sir, I was speaking about the incident of police firing in Mumbai. The most unfortunate incident of police firing over Dalit people in Mumbai on the 11th July, 1997, has shocked the whole nation. It has cast a very dark shadow of aggression upon the human and democratic rights of the poor people in the 50th year of our Independence. Anyway, Dalits, the most oppressed section in our society, do have the highest regards and sentiments of their own and those sentiments were seriously wounded by the desecration of the statue of Dr. Ambedkar, and being angered by the highly surcharged emotions, they assembled together to raise their protests against the uncivilised act of desecration of the statue of Dr. Ambedkar.
Sir, actually, what I read from the situation of that day in that area is that there was no provocation.
There was no provocation, there was no capability of violence on the part of the mob and there was no justification for police firing. Protests, hartals, dharnas and strikes are within the rights of the people living in the democratic set up of India. We are living in a free and sovereign country. We have the right to organise any protest, any hartal, any strike in the greater interest of the working class. It was their right to raise their voice against the uncivilised act. So, there was no justification for police firing. They had no serious arms or anything else in their hands to destroy the law and order situation in that area. So, there was no provocation to justify the police firing. And yet the police fired on them. What we read in the reports is that the police fired in a standing position, which is not permissible within the code of the police or in the Police Manual. To disperse any mob, to disperse any rioting mob, police may fire but they can fire in a sitting or lying position; they can never fire in a standing position. But here we see that the police fired on the dalit people in a standing position and the injuries were above the waist. The injuries could be done below the knee but that was not done. Is it the conduct of the agitated police in a democratic country? Is it the way to disperse the rioting mob? This is my humble question to you, Sir.
We should think over how the police officers have been agitated and how their psyche has been agitated. Someone asked me whether the police officer was a Hindu that he was killing the Muslims. Someone asks me in this independent country whether the police officer was an upper caste officer who was killing the lower caste people. This question has arisen in the minds of the working class people. How can the police officers be so much agitated that they can fire in a standing position to kill the people of this sovereign and independent country? Police have got no right to do so.
It is the observation of some journalists and it is the observation of the local people that the agitated psyche of the high police officers and the tacit sanction of the casteist politicians of the State combined together resulted in firing over the mob and in killing of these people. So, this is the worst outcome of the caste system in our society. This is the worst outcome of the casteist politics of the ruling party in Maharashtra. I do not want to say anything more about this.
I would like to place on record that this is not a new phenomenon in the history of Mumbai in the past few years. It has been observed that during the last five years, more than 500 incidents of desecration of statues have taken place. How does it take place? Where is the genesis of the conflict between the statue of Dr. Ambedkar and the statue of Chhatrapati Shivaji? Both of them are national heroes. Chhatrapati Shivaji and Dr. Ambedkar are the pride of the nation. They are the pride of the history of India. But where does the conflict arise between the statue of Dr. Ambedkar and the statue of Chhatrapati Shivaji? Who has created such a conflict and such a tension between the two sections? One section is of dalits who are worshipping the statue of Dr. Ambedkar like God, and the other section is of Sena, who are worshipping the statue of Chhatrapati Shivaji. The genesis of this conflict, the genesis of this tension, the genesis of these clashes has started from the controversy over the renaming of the Marathwada University after Dr. Ambedkar.
Can anybody in this House deny the fact that there was a serious controversy at the time of renaming of the Marathwada University after Dr. Ambedkar which was the claim or demand from the people that that University should be re-styled as Dr. Ambedkar University? Somebody has said that it should be named as Chhatrapati Shivaji Memorial University.
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