+vªÉIÉ VÉÒ, ¨ÉèÆ +É{ÉEòä ¨ÉÉvªÉ¨É ºÉä ¨ÉÆjÉÒ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ ºÉä VÉÉxÉxÉÉ SÉɽþiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò EªÉÉ ªÉ½þ EªÉÉ ªÉ½þ ºÉiªÉ ½þè ÊEò Ê{ÉUô±Éä ºÉÉ±É ¦É®ú ºÉä ½þ®ú ¤ÉÉ®ú +É{ÉEòÒ ¤É½þºÉ VÉÉä ½þÉä ®ú½þÒ ½þè SÉɽþä ´É½þ <Æ]õ®úxÉè¶ÉxÉ±É ¨ÉÉÊxÉ]õ®úÒ ¡òÆb÷ ½þÉä, ªÉÉ b÷¤±ªÉÚ.]õÒ.+Éä. ½þÉä ªÉÉ +¨É®úÒEòÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú Eòä ºÉÉlÉ ¤ÉɪɱÉè]õ®ú±É ]õÉEò ½þÉä, VɽþÉÆ-VɽþÉÆ ¤É½þºÉ ½þÖ<Ç ½þè EªÉÉ =xÉ ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ xÉä <ƶªÉÉä®úäÆºÉ EòÉ ºÉ´ÉÉ±É xɽþÒÆ =`öɪÉÉ? ÊVÉiÉxÉä ±ÉÉäMÉ +¨É®úÒEòÒ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú Eòä ªÉ½þÉÆ {É®ú +ÉB ½þèÆ, EªÉÉ =xÉ ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ xÉä +É{ɺÉä ªÉ½þ ¤ÉÉiÉ xɽþÒÆ Uôäc÷Ò ½þè ÊEò Eò¤É <ƶªÉÉä®úäÆºÉ JÉÉä±É ®ú½þä ½þÉä? Eò¤É ½þ¨ÉäÆ +ÉxÉä nùä ®ú½þä ½þèÆ? EªÉÉ ªÉä ¤ÉÉiÉäÆ xɽþÒÆ Uôäc÷Ò ½þèÆ? ªÉ½þ EòÉä<Ç MÉÖ{iÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ xɽþÒÆ ½þè* ºÉÉ´ÉÇVÉÊxÉEò ¤ÉÉiÉäÆ ½þèÆ* ªÉÖxÉÉ<]õäb÷ º]õä]õ ºÉÊ´ÉǺÉäºÉ ½þè ªÉÉ VÉÉä ¦ÉÒ +¨É®úÒEòÉ EòÒ ªÉ½þÉÆ ºÉÚSÉxÉÉ BVÉäÆºÉÒ ½þè, ªÉÉ VÉÉä ¦ÉÒ BVÉäÆºÉÒ ½þè, =ºÉxÉä ´É½þÉÆ Eòä <EòxÉÉʨÉEò ¤ÉÖ±ÉäÊ]õxÉ EòÉä ÊVɺÉä EòÖUô ºÉÉÆºÉnùÉäÆ EòÉä ¦ÉäVÉ ÊnùªÉÉ VÉÉiÉÉ ½þè, ªÉÊnù =ºÉÒ EòÉä {Égø ±ÉäÆMÉä, iÉÉä =ºÉ¨ÉäÆ ½þÒ BäºÉä Eò¨É ºÉä Eò¨É 10 =nùɽþ®úhÉ +É{ÉEòÉä BäºÉä Ê¨É±É VÉÉBÆMÉä*
MR. SPEAKER: Please conclude. You have made your point.
SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES (NALANDA):
¸ÉÒ VÉÉVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇxb÷ÒVÉ : +vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ¨ÉèÆ <ºÉ nùä¶É EòÉä +¨É®úÒEòÉ EòÉ ºÉ®úÉäMÉä]õ ¨ÉÉxÉxÉä Eòä ʱÉB iÉèªÉÉ®ú xɽþÒÆ ½þÚÆ* ªÉ½þ ºÉnùxÉ ÊEòºÉÒ Ê´Énùä¶ÉÒ iÉÉEòiÉ Eòä Eò½þxÉä {É®ú ʽþxnùÖºiÉÉxÉ ¨ÉäÆ xɽþÒÆ SÉ±É ºÉEòiÉÉ ½þè* ªÉ½þ ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÉ ºÉÉ´ÉǦÉÉè¨É ºÉnùxÉ ½þè* ªÉ½þ ºÉnùxÉ <ºÉ nùä¶É Eòä ʽþiÉ EòÉä ¨ÉqäxÉVÉ®ú ®úJÉEò®ú +{ÉxÉÉ ¡òèºÉ±ÉÉ Eò®úäMÉÉ +Éè®ú BäºÉÉ EòÉä<Ç ¦ÉÒ nù®ú´ÉÉVÉÉ ½þÉä, SÉɽþä {ÉÒUôä EòÉ nù®ú´ÉÉVÉÉ ½þÉä ªÉÉ ºÉɨÉxÉä EòÉ nù®ú´ÉÉVÉÉ ½þÉä, <xÉ xÉÒÊiɪÉÉäÆ EòÉä ªÉ½þÉÆ {É®ú xɽþÒÆ +ÉxÉä nùäMÉÉ*
MR. SPEAKER: We are on a procedural matter. We are not on merit.
SHRI NITISH KUMAR (BARH):
¸ÉÒ xÉÒiÉÒ¶É EòÖ¨ÉÉ®ú (¤ÉÉgø) : ºÉ®ú, |ɺÉÒVÉ®ú±É +Éè®ú EòÉÆº]õÒ]ªÉÚ¶ÉxɱÉ, nùÉäxÉÉäÆ Ê¨ÉEºÉ ½þÉä MÉB ½þèÆ*
MR. SPEAKER: I think we are on a procedural matter. It is a limited question.
Now, it has come to a position where a major decision has to be changed. In the Bill there are amendments by the BJP. The BJP at one stage said that they were not against private participation. But they said that the private companies should be within the country and not from outside. They said that multinational companies should not come.
By and large, there is nothing wrong; and it looks like quite reasonable. But today, at this moment, for me to take a decision to support this amendment is not possible. For that reason, I was telling Shri Chidambaram to take some time on this. But Shri Chandra Shekhar and others are here. Today we have a peculiar position. All the leaders of my party are on their way to Calcutta.
It is for the House to consider this and not for us. Either it should be deferred or if voting is there for this particular amendment, I have to ... (Interruptions) Let me finish. You can say `yes' or `no', I do not mind; but let me make my position clear.
On this particular amendment, if they insist on it, I have to abstain from voting. I will not be able to do it today. If Shri Chidambaram's amendment is accepted, I will support that amendment. I think, it is a reasonable amendment with which he has come up with. Generally, he will not do it, but he has moved.
MR. SPEAKER : No. He has not moved. He is asking the permission of the House to move it.
SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV : I will ask Shri Vajpayee also; let us see that; if Shri Chidambaram's amendment can be accepted with some change, that will be better.
SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR (BALLIA):
¸ÉÒ SÉxpù¶ÉäJÉ®ú : +vªÉIÉ VÉÒ, Ê{ÉUô±Éä nùÉä-iÉÒxÉ PÉÆ]õÉäÆ ºÉä ºÉnùxÉ ¨ÉäÆ VÉÉä EòÖUô ½þÖ+É ½þè =ºÉºÉä xÉ Eòä´É±É ºÉnùxÉ EòÒ ¨ÉªÉÉÇnùÉ PÉ]õÒ ½þè ¤ÉʱEò nùä¶É Eòä ºÉɨÉxÉä BEò xɪÉÉ ºÉ´ÉÉ±É JÉc÷É ½þÉä MɪÉÉ ½þè ÊEò EªÉÉ Ê´Énùä¶ÉÒ iÉÉEòiÉäÆ ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä nùä¶É EòÒ ºÉƺÉnù EòÉä ÊVÉºÉ iÉ®ú½þ SÉɽþäÆ =ºÉ iÉ®ú½þ SɱÉÉ ºÉEòiÉÒ ½þèÆ? Ê{ÉUô±Éä Uô½þ ´É¹ÉÉäÇÆ ºÉä ½þ¨É xÉÒÊiɪÉÉäÆ Eòä ºÉ´ÉÉ±É {É®ú <ºÉ nùä¶É EòÒ nùÖMÉÇÊiÉ nùäJÉiÉä ®ú½þä ½þèÆ ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ºÉnùxÉ EòÒ nùÖMÉÇÊiÉ +ÉVÉ ½þÒ nùäJÉxÉä EòÉä ʨɱÉÒ ½þè* ¨ÉèÆ BäºÉÉ ºÉ¨ÉZÉiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò VÉ¤É ¨ÉiÉnùÉxÉ ½þÉä ®ú½þÉ lÉÉ, =ºÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú ½þÉ®ú VÉÉiÉÒ iÉÉä =ºÉºÉä ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú xɽþÒÆ ÊMÉ®úiÉÒ* ±ÉäÊEòxÉ VÉÉVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇxb÷ÒVÉ ºÉɽþ¤É xÉä VÉÉä BEò ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò½þÒ ½þè, ´É½þÒ ºÉ½þÒ ±ÉMÉiÉÒ ½þè ÊEò ÊEòx½þÒÆ ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉä |ɺÉxxÉ Eò®úxÉä Eòä ʱÉB ¤ÉÉ®ú-¤ÉÉ®ú BEò |ɪÉÉºÉ ÊEòªÉÉ VÉÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þè +Éè®ú ¨ÉÖZÉä nùÖJÉ ½þè ÊEò ºÉnùxÉ Eòä Ê´ÉʦÉxxÉ ´ÉMÉÉäÇÆ Eòä ±ÉÉäMÉ =ºÉ |ɪÉÉºÉ EòÉä ºÉ¨ÉZÉiÉä ½þÖB ¦ÉÒ =ºÉ¨ÉäÆ ºÉ½þ¦ÉÉMÉÒ ½þÉäxÉä Eòä ʱÉB iÉèªÉÉ®ú ¤Éè`öä ½þèÆ*
+vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ¨ÉèÆ ¤Éc÷Ò Eòc÷Ò ¤ÉÉiÉ xɽþÒÆ Eò½þxÉÉ SÉɽþiÉÉ* Ê{ÉUô±Éä ÊnùxÉÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ ÊVÉºÉ iÉ®ú½þ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú xÉä nùä¶É EòÒ {ÉÚÆVÉÒ EòÉä Ê´ÉnùäʶɪÉÉäÆ Eòä ½þÉlÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉäSÉÉ ½þè, ÊVÉºÉ iÉ®ú½þ ºÉä ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä =tÉäMÉ =xÉEòä ½þÉlÉ ¨ÉäÆ MɪÉä ½þèÆ, ÊVÉºÉ iÉ®ú½þ ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä nùä¶É EòÒ {ÉÚÆVÉÒ {É®ú =x½þÉäÆxÉä Eò¤VÉÉ ÊEòªÉÉ ½þè, =xÉEòä +ÉÆEòb÷äÆ +MÉ®ú nùäJÉä VÉɪÉäÆ iÉÉä ÊEòºÉÒ ¦ÉÒ ®úɹ]Å EòÒ MÉnùÇxÉ ¶É¨ÉÇ ºÉä ZÉÖEò VÉɪÉäMÉÒ* ¨ÉèÆ +É{ɺÉä ÊxÉ´ÉänùxÉ Eò°üÆMÉÉ ÊEò ¤É½þÖiÉ ½þÉä SÉÖEòÉ, <ºÉ ¨ÉªÉÉÇnùÉ EòÉ +Éè®ú ½þxÉxÉ ¨ÉiÉ EòÒÊVÉB SÉɽþä VÉÉä EòÖUô ¦ÉÒ ½þÉä* |ɺiÉÉ´É ½þ]õÉxÉÉ SÉɽþäÆ ªÉÉ ®úÉäEòxÉÉ SÉɽþäÆ ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ºÉnùxÉ ¨ÉäÆ EòÖUô ¨ÉªÉÉÇnùÉ EòÉ ÊxÉ´ÉÉǽþ ½þÉäxÉÉ SÉÉʽþB +Éè®ú ¨ÉèÆ Eò½þiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò nùÉä ªÉÉ føÉ<Ç PÉÆ]õä ¨ÉäÆ VÉÉä EòÖUô ½þÖ+É ½þè, ´É½þ ºÉnùxÉ EòÒ ¨ÉªÉÉÇnùÉ Eòä Ê´É{É®úÒiÉ ½þè*
SHRI ILIYAS AZMI (SHAHABAD):
¸ÉÒ <ʱɪÉÉºÉ +ÉVɨÉÒ (¶Éɽþ¤ÉÉnù) : +vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, <ºÉ {É®ú VÉÉä ¤É½þºÉ {ɽþ±Éä SɱÉiÉÒ ®ú½þÒ ½þè =ºÉEòÉä ¨ÉèÆxÉä ¦ÉÒ ºÉÖxÉÉ +Éè®ú +ÉVÉ EòÉ Ê´ÉiiÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ EòÉ ¦ÉɹÉhÉ ¦ÉÒ ¨ÉèÆxÉä ºÉÖxÉÉ* +É{É Ê®úEòÉb÷Ç ¨ÉäÆ nùäJÉ ±ÉÒÊVɪÉä ÊEò =x½þÉäÆxÉä ½þ®ú ¤ÉÉ®ú ªÉ½þ Eò½þÉ ½þè ÊEò ¤ÉÒ¨ÉÉ {Éʤ±ÉEò ºÉèE]õ®ú ¨ÉäÆ ½þÒ ®ú½þäMÉÉ*
MR. SPEAKER : I do not know why he is repeating it.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI SHATRUGHAN PRASAD SINGH (BALIA):
¸ÉÒ ¶ÉjÉÖPxÉ |ɺÉÉnù ÊºÉÆ½þ (¤ÉʱɪÉÉ) (ʤɽþÉ®ú) : +vªÉIÉ VÉÒ, <ºÉ {É®ú ¦ÉɹÉhÉ EòÒ EòÉä<Ç Vɰü®úiÉ xɽþÒÆ ½þè*
... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)
+É{É ¨ÉiÉnùÉxÉ Eòä ʱÉB B|ÉÚ´É EòÒÊVÉB*... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)
SHRI ILIYAS AZMI (SHAHABAD):
¸ÉÒ <ʱɪÉÉºÉ +ÉVɨÉÒ : Ê´ÉiiÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ xÉä ºÉÆ¶ÉÉävÉxÉ EòÉ VÉÉä |ɺiÉÉ´É ®úJÉÉ lÉÉ, +MÉ®ú =xÉEòÒ xÉÒªÉiÉ ºÉÉ¡ò ½þè iÉÉä ¦ÉÉVÉ{ÉÉ Eòä ºÉÉlÉÒ xÉä VÉÉä +¨ÉäÆb÷¨ÉèÆ]õ ÊnùªÉÉ ½þè, =ºÉEòÉä ¨ÉÉxÉ ±ÉäxÉä
¨ÉäÆ <xÉEòÉä BiÉ®úÉVÉ ½þè? ¨ÉèÆ ºÉ¨ÉZÉiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò =xÉEòÒ xÉÒªÉiÉ ºÉÉ¡ò xɽþÒÆ ½þè <ºÉʱÉB PÉÖ¨ÉÉ-Ê¡ò®úÉEò®ú ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þèÆ*
MR. SPEAKER : I think we have discussed enough. Now, I will put the amendment to the vote of the House. There is no way out for this.
May I suggest that for the time being we do not move further; we stop as it is. ... (Interruptions) We will come back after discussion with all of them. ... (Interruptions) We will not even move this Bill. ... (Interruptions) We can come back to you, ... (Interruptions) Let me finish. ... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER : Let the Prime Minister finish his speech.
... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER : Let the Prime Minister finish his speech. Why are you so impatient?
... (Interruptions)
SHRI I.K. GUJRAL: I will suggest to the hon. Members that we do not move the Bill.
15.00 hrs. We keep the Bill back. We discuss amongst ourselves and in a modified form after the consensus is evolved - we will come back. ... (Interruptions)
SOME HON. MEMBERS: No.
SHRI NIRMAL KANTI CHATTERJEE :For two or three days or even four days, we have repeatedly approached the Minister of Finance. We have approached the Prime Minister also precisely for a discussion on our amendment so that even before placing all this before the House, we can try to see each other's point of view. That was turned down. We are happy that even at this
late stage, the Prime Minister is prepared to consider that. We are happy on that. ... (Interruptions) For the last four days, we have tried it. ... (Interruptions)
SHRI RAM NAGINA MISHRA (PUDRAUNA):
¸ÉÒ ®úÉ¨É xÉMÉÒxÉÉ Ê¨É¸É ({Éb÷®úÉèxÉÉ) : +vªÉIÉ VÉÒ, ¨Éä®úÉ {´ÉÉ<Æ]õ +Éì¡ò +Éb÷Ç®ú ½þè* VÉ¤É SÉÖxÉÉ´É Eòä ʱÉB EòɪÉÇ´ÉɽþÒ ½þÉäxÉä VÉÉ ®ú½þÒ lÉÒ iÉÉä |ɺiÉÉ´É ´ÉÉÊ{ÉºÉ ±ÉäxÉä EòÉ |ɶxÉ xɽþÒÆ =`öiÉÉ* +É{É °üÊ±ÉÆMÉ nùÒÊVÉB*
... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)
MR. SPEAKER: Enough, enough. Now, please listen to me. The procedure is very clear.
... (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: I have said before the lunchbreak that there is a precedent when a Bill even at a third reading stage was postponed. For that, the Mover of the Bill has to move a Motion. If there is a consensus, it is all right. Otherwise, even for the postponement, I will have to put it to the vote of the House. I am very clear about it. Therefore, if you want to move a Motion for postponement, you can move it. But I will have to put even that Motion to the vote of the House. .. (Interruptions) I do not think that there is any consensus.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I do not want to do anything without a certain consensus in the House. I am not talking about unanimity. The point it that we got stuck on clause 13 with two very sharp positions. I am not scoring a point or anything on that. One amendment has been defeated. They are entitled to press that point again. After all, it is a democracy and a system. They can press their point even after that amendment is defeated.
Then, there is another amendment which is of a more restrictive nature. According to me, there is a wider support for that amendment. Therefore, after consulting everybody, I have proposed that perhaps there is a way out having regard to very many factors including the way LIC and GIC are functioning. GIC is functioning in 35 countries. LIC is functioning in five countries. Having regard to all that, I said and I repeat it that there is no proposal to allow a foreign company or a multinational. But there is a proposal to modestly open the health insurance business to Indian companies. Therefore, I proposed the amendment. I am not moving it formally because I cannot do it without your permission. I have proposed an amendment.
At that stage, the Prime Minister interceded to say that he would like Shri Vajpayee and others to respond. All right, are we moving towards a meeting ground? I recognise your point of view. But on this, can we have a meeting ground?
SOME HON. MEMBERS: No, no.
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: I am aware of your point. Even on this, there is no meeting ground. What the Prime Minister has proposed is: on this - the formulation which I have given and the formulation which you have - is there a meeting ground? Can we talk about it? So, the Prime Minister says, "Would you consider deferring this matter until we talk about it?" I would appeal to Shri Vajpayee to respond to this. We can have a meeting ground. We will involve them also. We will involve the Congress. They want some time to look at it. The Congress really wants some time to look at it. So, let us involve everybody. We can have a formulation which takes care of apprehension. You may say that Shri Jaswant Singh repeatedly said about some apprehension. I am trying to allay it. Let us see whether there is a way to allay your apprehension. I think Sections 13 and 26 are there. We will allay it even better. Let us try to meet. If there can be an agreement on that, we can defer the debate. Otherwise, I think, the appeal of the Prime Minister should be responded to by the Leader of the Opposition.
SHRI ATAL BIHARI VAJPAYEE (LUCKNOW):
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SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, I only wish to respond to one point. I have continually consulted the leaders of the Parties separately and I wish to point out that this Bill was referred to the Standing Committee and 44 out of 45 Members of the Committee have reported this Bill for adoption with five amendments ... (Interruptions)
SHRI NIRMAL KANTI CHATTERJEE : Once again this is a distortion ... (Interruptions)
SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, all I would like to point out is, here is the report of the Standing Committee. Even after that - I am not going by this report alone . I have continually consulted leaders of Parties and now recognising the force of what you say, I am proposing this ... (Interruptions) I accept what you say ... (Interruptions) I only want to say that we want time ... (Interruptions)
SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV : You kindly withdraw the Bill as told by the Prime Minister ... (Interruptions) You should withdraw the Bill ... (Interruptions)
SHRI I.K. GUJRAL: Sir, I am grateful to the Leader of the Opposition because he has seen my submission in the correct manner. I can assure you that there is no intention on our part - on the part of the Government - to do something behind this House. We will not do that. Whatever policies are made will be made in the open and with the consent, knowledge and
approval of the House. Therefore, when we defer this, please take it in that
spirit. We have seen the spirit of the House and we will respect it ... (Interruptions)
SHRIMATI SUSHMA SWARAJ : No deferment. The Government should withdraw the Bill ... (Interruptions)
SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN : It should be withdrawn ... (Interruptions)
DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI : It should be withdrawn.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA : If the Government wants to achieve a consensus on this, let the Bill be withdrawn by them. A fresh Bill can be brought when there is a consensus. ... (Interruptions)
SHRIMATI SUSHMA SWARAJ : Let the Bill be withdrawn. ...(Interruptions)
SHRI NIRMAL KANTI CHATTERJEE : Let the Bill be withdrawn. ...(Interruptions)
SHRIMATI SUSHMA SWARAJ (SOUTH DELHI):
¸ÉÒ¨ÉiÉÒ ºÉֹɨÉÉ º´É®úÉVÉ : +SUôÉ ½þÉäMÉÉ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú <ºÉ Ê´ÉvÉäªÉEò EòÉä ´ÉÉ{ÉºÉ ±Éä ±Éä* ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)
SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA : On this issue, a consensus is required. When there is no consensus on the Bill, it should be withdrawn. ...(Interruptions)
DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI : Sir, let the Minister withdraw the Bill. ...(Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: I think this matter is very clear. There are two-three proposals now. I am very clear that everything has to be done with the consent of the House today. If it is seeking leave for moving a new amendment, it has to be with the leave of the House. If it is a motion for deferment of the Bill, it has to be again by a proper motion and it has to be with the consent of the House. If necessary, it has to be by voting. Withdrawal also has to be with the consent of the House. The Government has to make up its mind and take one of the three courses just now. Otherwise, I will have to put the amendments to vote.
SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA : There is a consensus for withdrawal.
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