XI LOK SABHA DEBATES,   Session V (Monsoon) 

Wednesday, July 23, 1997/Sravana 1, 1919 (Saka)


*t08

Type of Debate:	STATEMENT BY MINISTER

Title:	Regarding desecration of statue of Dr. B.R. Ambedkar and police firing
in Mumbai.

TEXT :
 14.01 hrs.


 The Lok Sabha re-assembled after Lunch at One Minute

 past Fourteen of the Clock.

		(Mr. Deputy-Speaker in the Chair)


14.04 hrs.


THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA): With your permission, Sir,
I would like to make a statement on the recent events in Mumbai including the
act of desecration of the statue of Dr. B.R. Ambedkar and the attack on the
residence of Shri Bhujbal, the Leader of the Opposition in the Council.

	The Members of this august House are fully aware through media reports
and otherwise about the regrettable incident of the desecration of the statue
of Dr. B.R. Ambedkar and the resultant firing by police at Ramabai Ambedkar
Colony, on the Eastern Express Highway leading to Pune on July 11, 1997. Since
then, my Ministry has been in constant touch with the Maharashtra State
Government in order to monitor the developments. Some companies of Rapid
Action Force were also made available to the State Government to help in
controlling the situation.

	On July 15, 1997 the matter was discussed by the Members of the
Consultative Committee meeting attached to my Ministry and many Members have
through notices sought to discuss the issue in Parliament.

	Subsequent to the incidents in Mumbai including that of the attack on
Shri Chhagan Bhujbal, Leader of the Opposition in the State Legislative
Council on July 13, 1997, I along with the Union Home Secretary visited Mumbai
from 15th July to 16th July, 1997 to have a first hand assessment of the
situation there.

	During the course of my visit to Mumbai, I visited the spot where the
statue was desecrated, where the firing took place and also visited the house
of Shri Bhujbal and also the Rajawadi Hospital where the injured people in
policing firing were receiving treatment. I also had very useful discussions
with the State Governor. Thereafter, I separately met the Chief Minister and
the Deputy Chief Minister of the State and discussed with them the details of
the incident of July 11, 1997 onwards including the attack on the house of
Shri Chhagan Bhujbal. Shri Bal Thackrey, Shiv Sena supremo also met me and
stated that he had publicly condemned the attack on the house of Shri Bhujbal
and assured me that there would be no repetition of such incident.

5.	During my stay, I also met the representatives of all the political
parties and other groups and organisations to ascertain their views on the
incident. For understandable reasons, all the parties were greatly perturbed
over the incidents, particularly the attack on Shri Bhujbal's house in a high
security area which is also covered by the prohibitory orders under section 37
of the Bombay Police Act. Most of them severely condemned this type of attack
by the cadres of one of the ruling parties in the State Government and
demanded immediate dismissal of the State Government for its failure to
maintain law and order and life and in protecting the property of all sections
of the people including prominent political leaders of the Opposition.

	As the Members are aware, now that the State Government has ordered
the Judicial Commission of Inquiry into the incident, it would not be
appropriate on my part to comment on the role of the administration about the
incident of police firing. However, the fact remains that the act of
desecration of the statue of Dr. Ambedkar and the subsequent police firing
resulting in several deaths and injuries are extremely disturbing.

	During the course of my discussions with the Chief Minister, I
stressed to him the need to make the Terms of Reference of the Commission of
Inquiry broad enough to identify the culprits responsible for the desecration
of the statue and also to ascertain if the police firing was inevitable. I
also emphasised on the need for ensuring that the administration should
function in a totally non-partisan manner and that this message should go down
the line urgently. I have since received the Terms of Reference of the Inquiry
Commission which is headed by Mr. Justice S.D. Gundewar and read as follows:

        
        (i)   Whether   any  individual  or  group  of  individuals  or
        organisation was responsible for the desecration of the  statue
        of Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar and whether it was pre-planned with a
        view to cause communal disturbances;

        
        (ii)  whether  the  public  reaction  towards  the incident was
        spontaneous  or  instigated  by  any  individual  or  group  of
        individuals or organisation;

        
        (iii)  whether  the  steps taken by the police to deal with the
        large crowd and to disperse it  were  adequate,  in  accordance
        with  the  procedure  established  for  riot control, or if the
        force used was excessive, and if so, to fix the  responsibility
        for such lapses, if any;

        
        (iv)  whether  use of forces, including firing was justified or
        otherwise;

        
        (v) measures, general or specific  which  are  required  to  be
        taken  by  the  police  and  the  administration  to avoid such
        occurrence in future;

        
        (vi) any other  matter  of  general  importance  regarding  the
        above.

        
	The Commission has been asked to submit its report within two months.

	I  have  also,  on  my  return from Mumbai, written to Chief Minister,
Maharashtra, separately about the  attack  on  Shri  Bhujbal's  house  drawing
attention  to  the  fact  that  not  only  was  his  house located in a highly
protected area but that the apprehension of an attack on his house  was  known
on  the  night  before  and communicated to police and still the incident took
place despite a large contingent of  police  force  available  there.  I  have
requested  the  Chief Minister to ensure that all relevant aspects of the case
are thoroughly investigated and all culprits brought to book.

	The State Government have reported that they  have  arrested  47  Shiv
Sena  activists  for  their  role  in  the attack on Shri Bhujbal's house. The
arrested persons include  Shri  Vilas  Avchat,  Chairman  of  the  Maharashtra
Housing  and  Area  Development  Authority, two Municipal Corporators and four
Vibhag Pramukhs of the Shiv Sena. The State Government has also reported  that
three  police  inspectors  have been suspended for alleged inaction during the
attack.

	Apart from Maharashtra, the incidents had a fallout in Gujarat  and  a
few  other  places  but  the  situation now is well under control. Immediately
after the Mumbai incidents, the Central Government issued instructions to  all
the  State  Governments to keep a watch on the law and order situation arising
out of the  desecration  at  Mumbai.  The  Central  Government  is  constantly
monitoring the situation.

	Even  as  the  State  Government will hopefully bring the criminals to
book and prevent recurrence  of  such  incidents,  members  would  agree  that
incidents  such  as  the  one  Mumbai are indeed a matter of concern. Both the
incidents show a growing intolerance among people while the incident of attack
on the house of Shri Bhujbal also shows serious laxity  on  the  part  of  the
State Government and the police.

	Sir,  with  your  permission  I would just also like to add one or two
points. One is that there is a  Police  Manual,  as  we  all  know,  which  is
applicable throughout the country, not only in Maharashtra. This Police Manual
prescribes  steps  which  the police is expected to take, in case there is any
necessity to take recourse to fire. If they have to disperse the  crowd  which
has  gathered  --  the  crowd  by the way was unarmed, nobody has alleged that
anybody in this crowd was carrying any weapons or arms, i.e., at this Ramabhai
Colony, the crowd which was gathered was totally unarmed -- according  to  the
Manual  the first thing the police has to do is to fire a shot in the air as a
warning. After that, one round can be fired; after a gap another round can  be
fired,  hoping  that  by  that  time  the  crowd  would have probably begun to
disperse. Only after that the situation may arise where the police has to have
recourse to firing, if they are attacked or something. But here there  was  no
question of attack on the police.

	I am sorry to go into all this because this is really a subject matter
of  judicial  commission of inquiry which will go into the whole incident. But
nevertheless, I have to point out, Sir, that no other means  was  employed  by
the  police  to disperse the crowd. They could have used, perhaps, tear gas or
lathi charge or water canon or something like that.

	But this firing was resorted to suddenly, quite  indiscriminately  and
it has resulted in these tragic deaths of innocent people who were just coming
out of their homes. I had talked to many of them. They were just coming out of
their  houses,  their homes in the colony. It was early in the morning. It was
not yet 6.30 in the morning. They were going to work, to their places of  work
and  many  of them were not even aware of the fact that a little distance away
on the side of the highway, there was a police force which  was  preparing  to
open  fire. Of course, the Commission will go into all this. There is no doubt
about it. I tried to make an inquiry as to who was the senior  police  officer
on  the  spot,  who had actually ordered the firing but nobody is able to tell
us. They say there was no such senior police officer who ordered  the  firing.
(Interruptions)

	Then, Sir, the other point that I wish to make is that the Head of the
Shiv  Sena,  Shri Bala Saheb Thackaray wanted to meet me. Of course, I agreed.
So he came to meet me at the Raj Bhavan accompanied by his nephew and his son.
Before that earlier on the same day, he had also met the Governor. If I may be
allowed to mention this fact, the Governor told me that he had told Shri  Bala
Saheb  Thackaray  that he had to assure him, i.e. the Governor and also assure
the people generally that such type of incidents would not be allowed to  take
place  again  and that he should also issue a statement condemning this firing
that is taking place, the desecration as well as the attack on Shri  Bhujbal's
house.  I  may  say  that a large number of people whom I met, who came in the
various delegations, were, of course, very much distressed and angry about the
firing on the Dalits. But they were equally, if  not  more,  angry  about  the
attack on Shri Bhujbal's house. For this reason they said, `If this is the way
that  a  Leader  of  the Opposition can be treated... The house was completely
ransacked. I went to the house. It was completely ransacked and pillaged. Shri
Bhujpal, according to him, had a very  narrow  escape.  He  said,  "They  were
looking  for him from room to room and he was trying to hide once in this room
and once in the next room and so on."

	Whatever it is, the Governor is also of the opinion that the  mood  in
which  they  were  at  that  time,  if  they  had  managed  to  catch him, any
consequences might have followed. So the people are perturbed  over  this.  Of
course, I know that the Shiv Sena people are very much hostile and angry about
Shri Bhujbal for other reasons, for his past background. We all know what kind
of people he used to associate at one time and the kind of people with whom he
is  associating now because there are allegations in Mumbai and allegations by
the Shiv Sena that he is  working  in  very  close  cooperation  with  another
well-known leader of gangsters in Mumbai.

SHRI  SURESH  KALMADI  (PUNE):  The  Home  Minister is making an irresponsible
statement on a person who is not here to defend himself in the House.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER : Let him conclude, please. He has not named anybody.

SHRI SURESH KALMADI :  It cannot be stated like that on a person  who  is  not
here.



SHRI  P.R.  DASMUNSI  (HOWRAH): This is not the justification of the attack on
his house. I am very sorry, Sir. I am very sorry  about  the  Home  Minister's
statement. (Interruptions) He is the Leader of the Opposition. How can he make
allegations?..  (Interruptions)  The  Home Minister has no right to talk about
the Leader of the Opposition of  another  House.  (Interruptions)  He  has  to
withdraw his statement. He has to only state the facts.

			... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER : Please take your seats.

			... (Interruptions)



SHRI SURESH KALMADI :  Instead of condemning the incident, he is talking about
a person.   In  Mumbai,  he  has made a contradictory statement.  Here it is a
serious matter.  What sort of statement is he making?

			... (Interruptions)

MR.  DEPUTY-SPEAKER  :  Let  him  conclude  please.  Afterwords,  he  may  add
something.

SHRI SURESH KALMADI :  He is condemning the person.  He must take the sentence
back.  He must withdraw the remarks.  (Interruptions)

SHRI SURESH KALMADI :  He must withdraw his remarks.  (Interruptions).  He has
to withdraw his remarks.    (Interruptions).   I am sorry.  He has to withdraw
his remarks.  (Interruptions).

SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA:  Will you listen to me?  (Interruptions).

SHRI SURESH KALMADI :  No.  (Interruptions).

SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA:  Why not?  You must listen to me.  (Interruptions).   You
can have your say afterwards.  (Interruptions).

MR.  DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Let him complete the statement.

			...  (Interruptions)

SHRI SURESH KALMADI :  Sir, I am sorry.  It is a very irresponsible  statement
by the Home Minister.  (Interruptions).

SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA:  Sir, you allow me to complete my statement; or  shall  I
sit down?  (Interruptions).  You go on shouting.  (Interruptions).

SHRI SURESH  KALMADI  :    I  demand  the  resignation  of  the Home Minister.
(Interruptions).

SHRI PRAFUL  PATEL  (BHANDARA):      He   has   to   withdraw   his   remarks.
(Interruptions).
SHRIMATI SUSHMA SWARAJ (SOUTH DELHI):



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... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)


SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA: You do not obey your Leader. (Interruptions).

SHRIMATI SUSHMA SWARAJ (SOUTH DELHI):



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...  (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)


SHRI P.R.  DASMUNSI :  Sir, how did the Home Minister take cognizance of  Shri
Bal  Thackaray  in  spite  of  the  Chief Minister, Shri Manohar Joshi, who is
supposed to apprise the Home Minister about law and  order  since  he  is  the
constitutional authority?  How can he do so?  (Interruptions).




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MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please take your seat.

			... (Interruptions)

SHRI P.R.   DASMUNSI  :    I  want  to  know  whether  Shri Bal Thackaray is a
constitutional  authority  to  decide   the   courts   or   law   and   order.
(Interruptions).




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... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)


SHRI A.C. JOS (IDUKKI): Sir, please allow me to speak. (Interruptions).



SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN (MUMBAI NORTH EAST):



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... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)


MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have allowed him. Please take your seat.

			... (Interruptions)

SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN (MUMBAI NORTH EAST):



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iÉ¤É iÉEò ªÉ½þÉÆ xÉÉ®úä¤ÉÉVÉÒ ½þÉä ®ú½þÒ lÉÒ*





VÉ¤É MÞɽþ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ =xÉEòä xÉäiÉÉ Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ºÉiªÉ Eò½þxÉä {É®ú =iÉ®úä +Éè®ú BEò BäºÉÉ xÉäiÉÉ ÊVɺÉxÉä
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... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)





={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : nùÉäxÉÉä ºÉÉ<b÷ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ½þÉäMÉÒ


MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Let the Home Minister complete his statement.

SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN (MUMBAI NORTH EAST):



¸ÉÒ |ɨÉÉänù ¨É½þÉVÉxÉ :  ÊVÉºÉ ´ªÉÊEiÉ xÉä Eò½þÉ ÊEò MÉÉÆ´É-MÉÉÆ´É ¨ÉäÆ MÉÉäb÷ºÉä Eòä º]õäSªÉÚ
JÉc÷ä ÊEòªÉä VÉÉBÆ*


MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Guptaji, please complete your statement.

SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN (MUMBAI NORTH EAST):



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MÉÆMÉÉVÉ±É ºÉä vÉÉäªÉÉ lÉÉ* ªÉ½þÒ ½þè <xÉEòÉ nùʱÉiÉ |Éä¨É*





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SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA: The allegation regarding Shri Bhujbal's associates or his
association with certain elements in Mumbai is not mine. It is not made by me.
I am only reporting the allegation that one hears in Mumbai from the Shiv Sena
people and also reported by me in the Press.

SHRI SURESH KALMADI  :   Is there any justification?  Who is the Leader of the
House?...(Interruptions)

SHRI  INDRAJIT  GUPTA: Secondly, some Members seem to be objecting to the fact
that I met Mr. Bal Thackery or that I have mentioned some of the things  which
he  said to us. I do not think there was anything wrong in meeting him. He is,
after all,  the  supremo  of  one  of  the  combinations  that  is  ruling  in
Maharashtra.

SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN :  Sir, all of them have met him many times.

SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA: That I do not know. Whether they have  met  or  not  met,
they are welcome to meet him if they want to...(Interruptions).

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please take your seats.

PROF. RASA SINGH RAWAT (AJMER):



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®ú½þä ½þèÆ*


MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please take your seats. Let him complete the statement.

SHRI VINAY KATIYAR (FAIZABAD):



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lÉÉ*


SHRI  INDRAJIT  GUPTA:  Should I continue, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, or should I sit
down?




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