XI LOK SABHA DEBATES,   Session V (Monsoon) 

Tuesday, August 05, 1997/Shravana 14, 1919 (Saka)



Type of Debate:	SPECIAL MENTION

Title:	Withholding of implementation of Fifth Pay Commission's Recommendations.

TEXT :
 12.04 hrs. 


SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN (MUMBAI NORTH EAST):



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SHRI JAG MOHAN (NEW DELHI):  Mr.  Deputy-Speaker, Sir, my distinguished
colleague has already mentioned a few points and I do not want to repeat them.
What I wish to say now is that it does not behove the Government to adopt a
confrontationist attitude with its employees.  It would have been much better
to approach the problem with a sense of accommodation.

	The second point which I would like to make is, what is the
Government's position with regard to such a wide gap that has been kept
between the maximum pay and the minimum pay?  This is also not acceptable to
most of us.

	The third point is, is it not a fact that such a wide gap is also
being kept in the salaries and emoluments that are available in the private
sector and the public sector?  This policy of allowing a free play to the
private sector to have as much pay as possible will mean that the entire
talent would be going to that sector and also an attitude is being created in
the nation to grab more and more money.  So, this type of attitude will lead
to more conflicts between the Government and the employees because their level
of aspiration is now going to a different place.  These are the few points
that I wanted to make.



SHRI AJOY MUKHOPADHYAY (KRISHNAGAR):  Mr.  Deputy-Speaker, Sir, instead of
removing the anomalies and the discriminations which are there in the
recommendations of the Fifth Central Pay Commission, the Government has
preferred to withhold the implementation of the entire recommendations all of
a sudden and they are giving no justification in support of that.  The Cabinet
Secretary appeared on the television and he was in a mood that by withholding
the implementation of the recommendations he was doing a very good thing and
that the Finance Ministry is doing a very good thing.

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE (SHRI P.  CHIDAMBARAM):  When did I say that?  I never
said anything.  Why do you bring in my name?

SHRI AJOY MUKHOPADHYAY :  No; it was Cabinet Secretary.

SHRI P.  CHIDAMBARAM:  Then, say about the Cabinet Secretary.

SHRI AJOY MUKHOPADHYAY :Yes; I have said that.  I have not said `Finance
Minister'; I said `Finance Ministry'.

	Sir, the point is, the recommendations of the Fifth Central Pay
Commission are full of anomalies and discriminations.  The pay fixation policy
has been recommended in such a way - the Government has not rejected that,
they have not improved that - that the pay of thousands of employees will be
reduced from what they are getting now.  Then, there is a discrimination
between the lowest pay and the highest pay.  Even the Group `B' officers are
being denied of their legitimate claims.  Not only that, the allowances,
including the House Rent Allowance, are not being given from 1st January,
1996, but from 1st August, 1997.  All these things are peculiar.  It does not
stop there.  The approach and the outlook of the Pay Commission which has been
reflected in its recommendation tells that it has been prepared at the
dictates of the I.M.F.  and the World Bank.  There is recommendation by which
three-and-a-half lakh posts will be abolished.  There is another
recommendation to downsize the Central administration by 30 per cent.  These
are the most retrograde recommendation, to speak of rejecting the retrograde
recommendation.  (Interruptions)

SHRI ILIYAS AZMI (SHAHABAD):



¸ÉÒ <ʱɪÉÉºÉ +ÉVɨÉÒ (¶Éɽþ¤ÉÉnù) : BEò iÉÉä E´É¶SÉxÉ +Éì´É®ú ¨ÉäÆ ±É¨¤ÉÒ-±É¨¤ÉÒ iÉEò®úÒ®úäÆ Eò®úiÉä
½þèÆ, nùںɮúä <ºÉ¨ÉäÆ ¦ÉÒ Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þèÆ iÉÉä nùںɮúä ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉ EªÉÉ ½þÉäMÉÉ?


SHRI AJOY MUKHOPADHYAY:  They have not even  removed  the  discrimination  and
anomalies that are very much there in the recommendations.  So, the employees'
organisations  and  associations  have taken a decision to go on an indefinite
strike.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Mukhopadhyay, please take your  seat.  That  is  all,
please sit down. Please allow Shri Basu Deb Acharia to speak now.

			... (Interruptions)

SHRI ILIYAS AZMI (SHAHABAD):



¸ÉÒ <ʱɪÉÉºÉ +ÉVɨÉÒ :EòäxpùÒªÉ Eò¨ÉÇSÉÉ®úÒ ½þÒ ¦ÉÚJÉä xɽþÒÆ ¨É®ú ®ú½þä ½þèÆ, nùä¶É ¨ÉäÆ nùںɮúä
±ÉÉäMÉ ¦ÉÒ ½þèÆ*





={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : ÊVÉx½þÉäÆxÉä xÉÉäÊ]õºÉ ÊnùªÉÉ ½þè, =xÉEòä xÉÉ¨É ½þÒ +ɪÉäÆMÉä*


SHRI  AJOY  MUKHOPADHYAY  :The Government by withholding the implementation of
the recommendations is practically waging a war against the Central Government
employees throughout the country.  I  condemn  this  attitude  because  it  is
condemnable.   I  think, the Government should review the whole thing and come
forward with a final decision.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER:  Okay, please sit down now.  Please take your seat.



SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA (BANKURA):  The notification was to be issued yesterday,
but suddenly the Government took a decision to withhold  the  notification  in
regard  to  the  implementation of the Fifth Pay Commission's recommendations.
No justification has been given as to why it has been withheld.   There  is  a
great  resentment among a large section of the Central Government employees in
regard to the implementation of the Fifth  Pay  Commission's  recommendations.
For  the  first  time, in the Fifth Pay Commission's recommendations, there is
such a wide gap between the lowest and  the  highest  paid  employees  --  Rs.
2,500 is  the pay of a Group `D' category employee, whereas Rs.  30,000 is the
pay of a Group `A' category officer.  So, the gap is much more, which was  not
there in  the earlier Pay Commissions' recommendations.  There are a number of
anomalies, and the Government employees' organisations and  associations  have
given their views on it.




={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : ¤Éä½þiÉ®ú ªÉ½þ ½þÉäMÉÉ ÊEò +É{É ªÉ½þ Eò½þäÆ ÊEò <ºÉEòä ºÉÉlÉ ¨ÉèÆ BºÉÉäʶÉB]õ Eò®úiÉÉ
½þÚÆ* +É{É Êb÷]õä±É ¨ÉäÆ ¨ÉiÉ VÉÉ<ªÉä*


SHRI ILIYAS AZMI (SHAHABAD):



¸ÉÒ <ʱɪÉÉºÉ +ÉVɨÉÒ :ªÉ½þÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ 10 ±ÉÉäMÉ ¤ÉÉä±ÉäÆMÉä* ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÉ ¨ÉºÉ±ÉÉ ¦ÉÒ ¤É½þÖiÉ VÉ°ü®úÒ ½þè*


SHRI  BASU  DEB  ACHARIA  :There  was  time for resolving all these issues and
anomalies, but without resolving those anomalies  or  without  removing  those
anomalies,  the  Government  decided  to  withhold  the  implementation of the
recommendations.




={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : ¨Éä®úÒ BEò ¨ÉVɤÉÚ®úÒ ½þè, ÊVÉxÉEòä xÉÉ¨É ºÉä xÉÉäÊ]õºÉ +ɪÉÉ ½þè, ¨ÉèÆ =xÉEòÉä ½þÒ
¤ÉֱɴÉÉ=ÆMÉÉ* ¨Éä®úä {ÉÉºÉ ´É½þÒ ¤É½þÖiÉ ½þèÆ* +É{ÉEòÉ xÉÉ¨É =ºÉ¨ÉäÆ ½þè* 
... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)


SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA :I urge upon the Government to have  a  discussion  with
the  Government  employees'  organisations  and  associations  to sort out the
problems  and  to  remove  the  anomalies,   and   also   to   implement   the
recommendations of the Fifth Pay Commission after removing all those anomalies
in the recommendations.

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER:  Please sit down now.  Shrimati Geeta Mukherjee  to  speak
now.  I have passed on to the next item.

			... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER:  I am sorry, I cannot accommodate everybody.  Your name is
there.



SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES (NALANDA):



¸ÉÒ VÉÉVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇxb÷ÒVÉ (xÉɱÉxnùÉ) : ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ VÉÒ, |ɨÉÉänù ¨É½þÉVÉxÉ VÉÒ xÉä BEò |ɶxÉ
=`öɪÉÉ* ´É½þ lÉÉ EòèʤÉxÉä]õ ºÉèFòä]õ®úÒ EòÉ B±ÉÉxÉ +Éè®ú =ºÉEòä SɱÉiÉä EªÉÉ <ºÉ ºÉnùxÉ EòÉ +{ɨÉÉxÉ ½þÉäMÉÉ?
EªÉÉ ªÉ½þ ºÉnùxÉ <ºÉ {É®ú nùJÉ±É xɽþÒÆ nùäMÉÉ? ½þ¨É xɽþÒÆ ºÉ¨ÉZÉ {ÉÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ, EªÉÉ <ºÉ ºÉnùxÉ EòÒ <VVÉiÉ
ªÉ½þÉÆ iÉEò =iÉ®ú MÉ<Ç ÊEò ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉ +{ÉxÉä ºÉnùxÉ EòÒ <VVÉiÉ Eòä >ð{É®ú ¦ÉÒ ¤É½þºÉ xɽþÒÆ Eò®úäÆMÉä* ...
(´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ xɽþÒÆ, ½þ¨É ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ VÉÒ ºÉä SÉɽþiÉä ½þèÆ* |ɨÉÉänù ¨É½þÉVÉxÉ VÉÒ
xÉä <ºÉ |ɶxÉ EòÉä =`öɪÉÉ ½þè*




={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : ½þÉÆ, =`öɪÉÉ ½þè*

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES (NALANDA):



¸ÉÒ VÉÉVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇxb÷ÒVÉ :iÉÉä ´É½þ ºÉ´ÉÉ±É +½þ¨É ºÉ´ÉÉ±É ½þè* ªÉ½þ ºÉnùxÉ ªÉ½þÉÆ {É®ú ¤Éè`öÉ ½þè*
Eò¨ÉÇSÉÉÊ®úªÉÉäÆ EòÉ ¦ÉʴɹªÉ +Éè®ú nùä¶É EòÉ ¦ÉʴɹªÉ <ºÉºÉä VÉÖc÷É ½þÖ+É ½þè*





={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : ¨ÉèÆ {ÉÚUô ®ú½þÉ ½þÚÆ* ¨ÉÆjÉÒ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ <ºÉEòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ EòÖUô Eò½þxÉÉ
SÉɽþäÆMÉä? ®úÉ¨É Ê´É±ÉÉºÉ VÉÒ, <ºÉEòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ½þÉ=ºÉ Eòä ¤Éɽþ®ú ªÉ½þ Eò½þ ÊnùªÉÉ MɪÉÉ, ´É½þ ¦ÉÒ ÊEòºÉÒ
+ÉÊ¡òºÉ®ú Eòä VÉÊ®úªÉä, =ºÉEòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ EòÉä<Ç EòÖUô º]õä]õ¨ÉäÆ]õ ½þÉäMÉÉ?


SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES (NALANDA):



¸ÉÒ VÉÉVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇxb÷ÒVÉ :EòèʤÉxÉä]õ ºÉèFòä]õ®úÒ EòÉä ¤ÉֱɴÉÉ<ªÉä, =ºÉºÉä VÉ´ÉÉ¤É ¨ÉÉÆÊMɪÉä* ...




(´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ +ɪÉäÆ ªÉÉ xɽþÒÆ +ɪÉäÆ* 
... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)




={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ :  EòÖUô iÉÉä EòʽþªÉä xÉ* MÉÒiÉÉ VÉÒ, +É{É ¤ÉèÊ`öªÉä* <xÉEòä ¤ÉÉnù ¤ÉÉäʱɪÉä*



SHRI P.   CHIDAMBARAM):    Sir, there is some misunderstanding which I think I
should clarify.    The  Cabinet  took  a  decision  on  the  Pay  Commission's
recommendations, I believe, about the 21st of July, 1997.

	That decision stands. That decision has  then  to  be  translated  and
issued  as  an  order.  There is no particular date for issuing that order. No
particular date was fixed for issuing that order. The orders  translating  the
Cabinet  decision  into an order are to be issued by the Finance Ministry, the
Ministry of Personnel, the Railway Ministry and by various  other  Ministries.
No  particular  date is fixed for the order. I asked the Cabinet Secretary. He
said that orders were under preparation and orders were ready,  more  or  less
ready  by  yesterday  and  in the ordinary course those orders would have been
issued yesterday. At that stage, I am told, some  members  of  the  Government
brought it to the notice of the Prime Minister that they would like to look at
one  or  two  aspects  before  the  orders were issued. So, the Prime Minister
consulted the Cabinet Secretary and said "Bring it to the  Cabinet  today  and
then orders can issue thereafter." I do not think there is any policy decision
to  withhold implementation of Pay Commission recommendations. It is just that
the orders were under preparation. They were more or less ready. I think  they
could  have been issued yesterday. They can be issued today. I think the Prime
Minister has suggested to the Cabinet Secretary that  in  view  of  the  views
expressed by one or two hon.Members to the Government it may be brought to the
Cabinet again and then orders could be issued.

SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN:  It has gone on to the electronic media.  You should  not
have given scope to it.

MR.  DEPUTY-SPEAKER  :    The  sort of statement made by the Cabinet Secretary
gives it a different impression.

SHRI P.  CHIDAMBARAM:  Let us not read too many sinister meanings into it  and
not too  little  either.    I  believe the Press asked him as he came out "Are
orders being issued today?  He said "No.  Orders are being  withheld  for  the
time being."

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES :What he said was totally different.

SHRI P.  CHIDAMBARAM:    There  is  no  policy  decision.  Let me make it very
clear.  There is no decision to  withhold  the  decision  of  the  Cabinet  to
implement the Pay Commission's recommendations.

SHRI  PRAMOD MAHAJAN: It is a very serious matter that when there is no policy
decision of the Government to withhold, the  Cabinet  Secretary  goes  to  the
media also saying that "We are withholding it."




={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ: ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É VÉÒ +É{É EòÖUô Eò½þxÉÉ SÉɽþiÉä ½þèÆ*




...  (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)


SHRI MULAYAM SINGH YADAV (MAINPURI):



®úIÉÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ (¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É ÊºÉƽþ ªÉÉnù´É): ¨ÉèÆ ªÉ½þ Eò½þxÉÉ SÉɽþiÉÉ ½þÚÆ 
... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER : Let me also say something.

			... (Interruptions)

SHRI MULAYAM SINGH YADAV (MAINPURI):



¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É ÊºÉƽþ ªÉÉnù´É: ºÉÉlÉ ½þÒ ½þÉä VÉÉBMÉÉ*




={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ:  +JɤÉÉ®úÉäÆ xÉä iÉÉä ªÉ½þÉÆ iÉEò ʱÉJÉÉ ½þè ÊEò `Ê´Énù½þè±b÷', vɨÉEòÒ nùÒ ½þè
½þc÷iÉÉ±É EòÒ, <ºÉʱÉB ´ÉÉ{ÉºÉ Ê±ÉªÉÉ ½þè, ªÉ½þ Uô{ÉÉ ½þè*

SHRI P.  CHIDAMBARAM:    There is no policy decision.  It was a question asked
by some Press people and he simply said, I am told, that "We  are  holding  it
back to some other date." (Interruptions)


SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES (NALANDA):



¸ÉÒ VÉÉVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇÆb÷ÒVÉ :ªÉ½þ ºÉ¨ÉÉvÉÉxÉEòÉ®úEò xɽþÒÆ ½þè* 
...  (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)

This is not a fair discussion and explanation.  ...(Interruptions).

MR.  DEPUTY-SPEAKER :  Do you want to say anything, Shri Mulayam Singh Yadav?

SHRI MULAYAM SINGH YADAV (MAINPURI):



¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉªÉ¨É ÊºÉƽþ ªÉÉnù´É: ¨ÉèÆ <ºÉÒ {É®ú EòÖUô Eò½þxÉÉ SÉɽþiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* 
... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)


SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES :Do not try to mislead the House.  This is an
insult to injury. ... (


´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) VÉÉä PÉÉ´É ½þÖ+É ½þè =ºÉ {É®ú xɨÉEò ±ÉMÉÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* ...
(´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) +É{É <ºÉEòÒ ºÉnùxÉ Eòä VÉÊ®úB VÉÉÆSÉ Eò®ú´ÉÉBÆ ÊEò =x½þÉäÆxÉä EªÉÉ Eò½þÉ* 
... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)





ºÉÉ®úä +JɤÉÉ®ú ʱÉJÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ, EªÉÉ ºÉÉ®úä +JɤÉÉ®ú MɱÉiÉ ½þèÆ +Éè®ú ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ VÉÉä Eò½þ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ ´É½þ
ºÉSÉ ½þè 
...  (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)
 ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉä <ºÉ iÉ®ú½þ ºÉä ¤ÉxÉɪÉÉ VÉÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þè 
...  (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)
 EªÉÉ
½þ¨É +Éè®ú ªÉ½þ ºÉ¤É ʱÉJÉxÉä ´ÉɱÉä MɱÉiÉ ½þÉä MÉB 
...  (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)
 ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ EªÉÉ xɽþÒÆ nùäJÉiÉä ...
(´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ½þ¨É ®úÉäVÉ +JɤÉÉ®ú {ÉgøiÉä ½þèÆ*....(

Interruptions).

SHRI  BASU DEB ACHARIA :When there is no policy decision, why should you go to
the press?




¸ÉÒ VÉÉVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇÆb÷ÒVÉ ªÉ½þ Eò½þxÉÉ ÊEò SɱÉiÉä-SɱÉiÉä ¤ÉÉä±Éä, ªÉ½þ SɱÉiÉä-SɱÉiÉä ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä ´ÉɱÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ
xɽþÒÆ ½þè*....(

Interruptions)



SHRI I.D.  SWAMI (KARNAL):  When there is no date fixed  for  the  issuing  of
orders,  where  is  the necessity for a statement by the Cabinet Secretary and
that too on the Television?



SHRI JASWANT SINGH (CHITTORGARH):  By what the  hon.    Finance  Minister  has
said,  in  fact,  the  situation  appears  to  be  far more serious than as it
appeared either by simply witnessing what has appeared on the Television or by
reading what has appeared in today's headlines.  The hon.    Finance  Minister
said  that  a  Cabinet decision accepting the distillate of the Pay Commission
was taken on 21st July.

	The Cabinet decision was taken on the 21st of July...(Interruptions) I
can accept that the Cabinet had not decided upon any one particular  date  for
the  implementation  of  that  decision.  Thereafter,  that decision was to be
implemented yesterday  which  was  tentatively  fixed  as  the  date  for  the
implementation.  Whether  it  is to be implemented or not to be implemented is
decided by a casual conversation between the hon. the Prime Minister  and  his
Cabinet Secretary and the announcement was made through the Television that it
is withheld...(Interruptions)

	Thereafter,  the  third  point which the hon. the Finance Minister has
himself said is that certain Members of the Cabinet had then gone to the  hon.
the   Prime   Minister   to  protest  about  it.  Thereafter  a  decision  was
taken...(Interruptions)

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: No. You are using your  own  words...(Interruptions)  You
are putting words into my mouth. I have not used those words. Do not put words
into my mouth...(


´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)




={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ :  =x½þÉäÆxÉä |ÉÉä]õäº]õ ±É¡WÉ <ºiÉä¨ÉÉ±É xɽþÒÆ ÊEòªÉÉ*





				
...  (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)


SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN (MUMBAI NORTH EAST):



¸ÉÒ |ɨÉÉänù ¨É½þÉVÉxÉ (¨ÉÖ¨¤É<Ç -- =iiÉ®ú {ÉÚ´ÉÇ) : 21 VÉÖ±ÉÉ<Ç EòÉä VÉÉä Êb÷ºÉÒVÉxÉ Ê±ÉªÉÉ lÉÉ =ºÉ
{É®ú EòÖUô ¨ÉÆÊjɪÉÉäÆ xÉä +É{ÉÊiiÉ EòÒ* 
... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)




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