<b>XI LOK SABHA DEBATES,  <i> Session V (Monsoon) </i>
</b>
XI LOK SABHA DEBATES,   Session V (Monsoon) 

Monday, July 28, 1997/Sravana 6, 1919 (Saka)





Type of Debate:	CLARIFICATION ON THE STATEMENT BY MINISTER		

Title:	Regarding clarification of Prime Minister's statement on political
participation of boys in Jammu and Kashmir.	

TEXT :
 1203 hrs.


SHRI JASWANT SINGH (CHITTORGARH):





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SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR (BALLIA):





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SHRI  SOMNATH  CHATTERJEE  (BOLPUR):  I  must  respond  to  his  observations.
Naturally,  my  Party is a Party which brings sanity into this whole affair or
in every affair. We have shown how probity and morality should be the order of
the day.

	Mr.  Deputy  Speaker,  Sir,  so  far  as  we  are  concerned  we  want
normalisation  of  relations  in  Kashmir.  There  is  no  doubt that it is an
integral part of India. There is no question of, in any way,  compromising  on
that  issue.  We  have  seen that only the last Prime Minister and the present
Prime Minister have taken some steps  for  normalising  the  situation  there.
There have been period of confrontation and trouble there.

I  do  not  wish  to  go into that. We welcome any move made by the hon. Prime
Minister to normalise the situation, to bring back some  misguided  people  to
the national mainstream. But, since very senior leaders like Chandra Shekharji
and  Jaswant  Singhji  have  raised certain questions on this, I think that it
will be proper for the hon. Prime Minister to come to the House  and  make  it
clear  as  to  what  he wanted to say, what his policy is or what has been his
call while he was there.

	Therefore, I would request the hon. Prime Minister to come and make it
clear before this House. I am sure he will never compromise so  far  as  India
and  its  relations  with  that  part of India and relations of other parts of
India with that part of India are concerned.  All  efforts  to  normalise  the
situation should be welcome. But let the Prime Minister say, `Yes, Sir, on the
first  day  there was some statement and today some other statement has come'.
We cannot always respond on the basis  of  newspaper  reports.  Therefore,  it
would  be  better  if the hon. Prime Minister could come here and say what the
position is.



SHRI SHARAD PAWAR (BARAMATI): Mr. Deputy-Speaker, Sir, I do support  the  view
which  has been expressed by my hon. colleague Shri Somnath Chatterjee. By and
large, there are no two opinions on this issue. In this  august  House,  on  a
number  of occasions, by and large, there has been unanimity among most of the
political parties on this. Any effort to normalise relations with Pakistan  is
definitely  welcome.  Any effort to improve the situation in Jammu and Kashmir
is also welcome. But, in the last  few  days,  a  number  of  statements  have
appeared  in  the  newspapers.  I  do  not know how far they are true and what
exactly is the position. There were certain occasions when  certain  important
representatives  of the nation have visited that area giving some suggestions,
talking with a number of local people. We have not, at least I have  not,  got
any  details  about that. So, I think that it will definitely be better if the
Prime Minister himself comes and makes a statement and briefs Parliament  when
it is in Session. The country should at least know about all these things.



SHRI CHAMAN LAL GUPTA (UDHAMPUR):





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½þÉä iÉÉä ¤ÉiÉÉ<B*


SHRI CHAMAN LAL GUPTA (UDHAMPUR):





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½þÚÆ*







				
... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)


SHRI VIJAY GOEL (SADAR - DELHI):





¸ÉÒ Ê´ÉVÉªÉ MÉÉäªÉ±É (ºÉnù®ú-Ênù±±ÉÒ) : ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ¨ÉèÆ ¦ÉÒ EòÖUô Eò½þxÉÉ SÉɽþiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* ...
(´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)


DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Please sit down. Let me say something.






				
... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)







={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : nùäÊJÉB, Bº]õ䤱ÉÒ¶É EòÆ´ÉäƶÉxÉ ½þè, {ÉÉʱÉǪÉɨÉäÆ]õ EòÉ ºÉjÉ SÉ±É ®ú½þÉ
½þÉä, EòÉä<Ç {ÉÉʱɺÉÒ º]õä]õ¨ÉäÆ]õ {ÉÉʱÉǪÉɨÉäÆ]õ Eòä ¤Éɽþ®ú xɽþÒÆ ½þÉäxÉÉ SÉÉʽþB* |ÉvÉÉxɨÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ
E±Éä®úÒ¡òÉ<Ç Eò®úäÆ ÊEò =x½þÉäÆxÉä EªÉÉ Eò½þÉ ½þè*


SHRI MANGAT RAM SHARMA (JAMMU):





¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÆMÉiÉ ®úÉ¨É ¶É¨ÉÉÇ (Vɨ¨ÉÚ) : +É{É ¨ÉÖZÉä ¦ÉÒ ¤ÉÉä±ÉxÉä EòÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ nùÒÊVÉB*







={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : +É{É ¤Éè`ö VÉÉ<B, ¨ÉèÆ |ÉvÉÉxɨÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ EòÉä ¤ÉÖ±ÉÉ SÉÖEòÉ ½þÚÆ*


SHRI MANGAT RAM SHARMA (JAMMU):





¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÆMÉiÉ ®úÉ¨É ¶É¨ÉÉÇ ¨ÉèÆxÉä {ɽþ±Éä ¦ÉÒ +É{ɺÉä ÊxÉ´ÉänùxÉ ÊEòªÉÉ lÉÉ*







={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : +É{É Eò½þ ±ÉÒÊVÉB EªÉÉ Eò½þxÉÉ ½þè* MÉÖVÉ®úÉ±É ºÉɽþ¤É, <xÉEòÉä VÉ®úÉ Eò½þ ±ÉäxÉä
nùÒÊVÉB*







				
... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)


SHRI  MADHUKAR SARPOTDAR (MUMBAI NORTH-WEST): Sir, I have been raising my hand
on this since the very beginning.

SHRI MOHAN RAWALE (MUMBAI SOUTH - CENTRAL):





¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÉä½þxÉ ®úɴɱÉä (¨ÉÖ¨¤É<Ç nùÊIÉhÉ-¨ÉvªÉ) :  ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ EòÒ iÉ®ú¡ò
ºÉä ¦ÉÒ EòÉä<Ç ¦ÉÒ xɽþÒÆ ¤ÉÉä±ÉÉ*







={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ :  ¨ÉèÆ ¨ÉÉxÉiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò +É{ÉEòÒ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ EòÒ iÉ®ú¡ò ºÉä ¦ÉÒ xɽþÒÆ ¤ÉÉä±ÉÉ*


SHRI MANGAT RAM SHARMA (JAMMU):





¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÆMÉiÉ ®úÉ¨É ¶É¨ÉÉÇ VÉxÉɤÉ, ºÉ¤ÉºÉä {ɽþ±Éä EòÉÆOÉäºÉ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú Eòä |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ xÉä +Éè®ú =ºÉEòä
¤ÉÉnù VÉÉä nùÉä ºÉ®úEòÉ®úäÆ ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ºÉ{ÉÉä]õÇ ºÉä +É<ÇÆ, =x½þÉäÆxÉä Vɨ¨ÉÚ-Eò¶¨ÉÒ®ú ¨ÉäÆ <xÉÒʶɪÉäÊ]õ´É
ʱɪÉÉ* =x½þÉäÆxÉä ´É½þÉÆ Eòä ʱÉB <EòÉäxÉʨÉEò {ÉèEòäVÉ ÊnùªÉÉ* ´É½þÉÆ ½þɱÉÉiÉ xÉÉì¨ÉÇ±É Eò®úxÉä Eòä ʱÉB
VÉÉä Ênù±ÉSɺ{ÉÒ ±ÉÒ VÉÉ ®ú½þÒ ½þè, =ºÉEòÒ ¨ÉèÆ ºÉ®úɽþxÉÉ Eò®úiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* <x½þÉäÆxÉä ¤É½þÖiÉ +SUôÉ EòɨÉ
ÊEòªÉÉ* <ºÉEòÒ ºÉ®úɽþxÉÉ ½þÉäxÉÒ SÉÉʽþB*







	¨Éä®úÉ nùںɮúÉ {´ÉÉ<Æ]õ ªÉ½þ ½þè ÊEò |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ xÉä ±Éɺ]õ ¨ÉäÆ VÉÉä ¤ÉªÉÉxÉ
ÊnùªÉÉ, =ºÉä ´É½þ E±ÉèÊ®ú¡òÉ<Ç Eò®úäÆ* =x½þÉäÆxÉä Eò½þÉ ÊEò VÉÉä ±ÉÉäEò±É ʨÉʱÉ]õäÆ]ºÉ ½þÊlɪÉÉ®ú UôÉäc÷Eò®ú
¤ÉÉiÉSÉÒiÉ Eòä ʱÉB +ÉMÉä ¤ÉgøiÉä ½þèÆ +Éè®ú ¨Éäxɺ]ÅÒ¨É ¨ÉäÆ +ÉiÉä ½þèÆ iÉÉä MÉ´ÉxÉǨÉèÆ]õ +Éì¡ò <ÆÊb÷ªÉÉ
+Éè®ú º]õä]õ MÉ´ÉxÉǨÉèÆ]õ =xɺÉä ¤ÉÉiÉSÉÒiÉ Eòä ʱÉB iÉèªÉÉ®ú ½þè* ¨ÉèÆ BäºÉÉ ºÉ¨ÉZÉiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò ªÉ½þ ¤ÉÉiÉ
ºÉ®úɽþxÉÉ Eòä EòÉÊ¤É±É ½þè* VÉÉä +{ÉxÉÒ º]õä]õ Eòä ±ÉÉäMÉ ½þèÆ, =xɺÉä VÉ°ü®ú ¤ÉÉiÉSÉÒiÉ ½þÉäxÉÒ SÉÉʽþB +Éè®ú
½þɱÉÉiÉ EòÉä xÉÉì¨ÉÇ±É Eò®úxÉÉ SÉÉʽþB*







	¨ÉèÆ nùںɮúÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ªÉ½þ Eò½þxÉÉ SÉɽþiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò <ºÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉä ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÉ {Éc÷äMÉÉ ÊEò ʨÉʱÉ]õèƺÉÒ
VÉÉä iÉÒxÉ ÊVɱÉä ½þèÆ 
...  (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)







={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ :  +É{É =ºÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉä UôÉäc÷ nùÒÊVÉB* |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ JÉÖnù E±ÉèÊ®ú¡òÉ<Ç
Eò®úäÆMÉä*


SHRI MANGAT RAM SHARMA (JAMMU):





¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÆMÉiÉ ®úÉ¨É ¶É¨ÉÉÇ ¨ÉèÆ {´ÉÉ<Æ]õ ®úJÉÚÆMÉÉ iÉÉä ´É½þ E±ÉèÊ®ú¡òÉ<Ç Eò®úäÆMÉä * +MÉ®ú ¨ÉèÆ
{´ÉÉ<Æ]ºÉ ½þÒ xɽþÒÆ ®úJÉÚÆMÉÉ iÉÉä ´É½þ =xÉEòÉä EòèºÉä E±ÉèÊ®ú¡òÉ<Ç Eò®úäÆMÉä?  ¨ÉÖZÉä nùÉä ¤ÉÉiÉäÆ Eò½þxÉä
nùÒÊVÉB*







={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ EòÒ º]õä]õ¨ÉèÆ]õ {É®ú SÉSÉÉÇ ½þÉä ®ú½þÒ ½þè*


SHRI MANGAT RAM SHARMA (JAMMU):





¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÆMÉiÉ ®úÉ¨É ¶É¨ÉÉÇ ¨ÉÖZÉä {ɽþ±Éä +{ÉxÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò½þxÉä nùÒÊVÉB* <ºÉºÉä ¨Éä®úÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉ VÉ´ÉÉ¤É +É
VÉÉBMÉÉ* iÉÒxÉ ÊVɱÉä, {ÉÚÆUô, ®úÉVÉÉè®úÒ +Éè®ú EòÉ®úÊMÉ±É ¨ÉäÆ Ê¨ÉʱÉ]õèƺÉÒ VªÉÉnùÉ ¤ÉgøÒ ½þè* nùä´Éä
MÉÉèc÷É VÉÒ xÉä {ÉèEòäVÉ |ÉÉäOÉÉ¨É EòÒ VÉÉä PÉÉä¹ÉhÉÉ EòÒ lÉÒ, =xɨÉäÆ ºÉä Vɨ¨ÉÚ EòÒ +É<Ç]õ¨ºÉ {É®ú +¨É±É
xɽþÒÆ ½þÉä ®ú½þÉ*







={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : `öÒEò ½þè, ¤ÉÉiÉ ½þÉä MÉ<Ç ½þè*


SHRI MANGAT RAM SHARMA (JAMMU):





¸ÉÒ ¨ÉÆMÉiÉ ®úÉ¨É ¶É¨ÉÉÇ Vɨ¨ÉÚ ¨ÉäÆ {ÉèEòäVÉ |ÉÉäOÉÉ¨É EòÒ +É<Ç]õ¨ºÉ {É®ú EªÉÉ +¨É±É ½þÉä ®ú½þÉ ½þè?







={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : `öÒEò ½þè* ¤ÉÉiÉ ½þÉä MÉ<Ç ½þè* +¤É +É{É ¤Éè`ö VÉÉBÆ*




SHRI MADHUKAR SARPOTDAR Sir, whatever statement Shri Jaswant Singh has made in
this House, I fully endorse that.  Secondly, it is our experience for the last
one-and-a-half  years that we have been discussing the Jammu and Kashmir issue
very often.  It is a good sign that we are trying to negotiate and  trying  to
establish peace  in  this part of the country, Jammu and Kashmir.  At the same
time, when we put certain conditions and when people from within  had  such  a
dialogue, I  can understand it.  But, those people are encroaching on our land
property and firing the people and killing them.    The  Government  of  India
should  clarify  its  policy  as  to whom and with whom they are going to have
negotiations and what  action  the  Government  of  India  is  going  to  take
eventually.   Not  only  that, what message the Government of India intends to
pass on to all these culprits extremist and to  those  who  are  unnecessarily
facing problems in Jammu and Kashmir.  That is also a very important thing and
that message  should  be clear.  In that case, I would humbly request the hon.
Prime Minister to clarify the solicy.



SHRI ILIYAS AZMI (SHAHABAD):





¸ÉÒ <ʱɪÉÉºÉ +ÉVɨÉÒ (¶Éɽþ¤ÉÉnù) : ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ¨ÉèÆ VɺɴÉÆiÉ ÊºÉƽþ VÉÒ.¸ÉÒ ºÉÉä¨ÉxÉÉlÉ
SÉ]õVÉÒÇ,¸ÉÒ SÉxpù¶ÉäJÉ®ú +Éè®ú ¶É®únù {É´ÉÉ®ú VÉÒ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉÉäÆ {É®ú ºÉ½þ¨ÉÊiÉ |ÉEò]õ Eò®úiÉä ½þÖB ªÉ½þ Eò½þxÉÉ
SÉɽþiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò ¨ÉÖZÉä JÉÖnù <ºÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉ +¡òºÉÉäºÉ ½þè ÊEò JÉÉºÉ iÉÉè®ú ºÉä ¨ÉÉxÉxÉÒªÉ |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ
ʺɡòÇ <ºÉ ¨ÉɨɱÉä ¨ÉäÆ xɽþÒÆ, nùںɮúä ¨ÉɨɱÉÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ ¦ÉÒ ºÉ֤ɽþ BEò ¤ÉªÉÉxÉ nùäiÉä ½þèÆ +Éè®ú ¶ÉÉ¨É EòÉä
nùںɮúÉ ¤ÉªÉÉxÉ nùäiÉä ½þèÆ* <ºÉºÉä §É¨É EòÒ ÊºlÉÊiÉ {ÉènùÉ ½þÉäiÉÒ ½þè*


SHRI  IK. GUJRAL:





|ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ (¸ÉÒ <xpù EòÖ¨ÉÉ®ú MÉÖVÉ®úɱÉ) : +É{É EªÉÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò½þ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ? ¨ÉèÆxÉä BäºÉÉ
EòÉèxÉ ºÉä EòɪÉÇ ¨ÉäÆ ÊEòªÉÉ ½þè?


SHRI ILIYAS AZMI (SHAHABAD):





¸ÉÒ <ʱɪÉÉºÉ +ÉVɨÉÒ ¨ÉèÆ =xɺÉä VÉÉxÉxÉÉ SÉɽþÚÆMÉÉ ÊEò VÉ¤É Eò¶¨ÉÒ®ú ¨ÉäÆ =x½þÉäÆxÉä ¤ÉªÉÉxÉ ÊnùªÉÉ ÊEò
½þ¨É ʤÉxÉÉ ¶ÉiÉÇ =OÉ´ÉÉÊnùªÉÉäÆ ºÉä ¤ÉÉiÉSÉÒiÉ Eòä ʱÉB iÉèªÉÉ®ú ½þèÆ iÉÉä EªÉÉ ÊEòºÉÒ =OÉ´ÉÉnùÒ
ºÉÆMÉ`öxÉ xÉä =xɺÉä ʤÉxÉÉ ¶ÉiÉÇ ¤ÉÉiÉSÉÒiÉ Eò®úxÉä EòÒ {Éä¶ÉEò¶É EòÒ lÉÒ?  =x½þÉäÆxÉä +{ÉxÉÒ iÉ®ú¡ò ºÉä BEò
¤ÉÉiÉ Eò½þÒ ±ÉäÊEòxÉ Ênù±±ÉÒ ¨ÉäÆ +ÉEò®ú =±É]õ MÉB* ´É½þ <ºÉEòÉä ¦ÉÒ E±ÉèÊ®ú¡òÉ<Ç Eò®úäÆ*




SHRI I.K. GUJRAL: Sir, before I come to the point, I strongly protest  against
the  observations  made  by my friend that I said something in the morning and
said something else in the evening. I am always consistent in my statements on
every issue and I continue to do that. And now we have come to this issue.

	I had gone to Kashmir for two days.    During  my  visit,  I  had  the
opportunity  of  not only laying the foundation stone for the new railway line
that we are going to build in the Valley itself from  Kazikund  to  Baramulla.
The  idea  was  that  the  railway  line  that  is  coming via Udhampur in one
direction naturally goes through a different terrain, and it  is  taking  more
time.   In  the  meantime,  we  have  felt  and  thought that it would be more
expeditious and useful if we lay the railway line also simultaneously  in  the
Valley itself.  Later on, through the tunnel it could be joined.


This will also be an effort to try to provide more employment there.
Therefore, this year, we have earmarked about Rs. 75 crore for works in the
Valley itself.

	Apart from these two functions, I also had the opportunity of
addressing the Army Jawans, their leaders, the BSF jawans and their leaders.
These were the four functions that I had attended. What is the situation in
Kashmir? The situation in Kashmir today is, fortunately we have turned the
corner. It is not that the insurgency has ended but by and large I think both
the Governments - the Government of Jammu and Kashmir and the Central
Government - have been able to get better of the insurgency. All the same,
from across the border, the insurgency is being sustained and a large number
of weapons have been captured. I have seen two collections of those weapons
which are very large and very sophisticated. I have also seen the figures of
the various skirmishes that take place from time to time. I must say to the
credit of our armed forces and also the BSF and other paramilitary forces that
they have been able to safeguard our security firmly and with a great deal of
efficiency. At the same time, we have seen for the last three-four months,
there is a consistent firing across the border and my friend, the Defence
Minister, should be able to tell us more about it. This is also being resisted
with firmness.

	Our policy has another dimension also. Not only this Government but
previously also we have been trying to get back those strayings youths, who I
believe, have been led astray by the false propaganda against India. Some of
them have come out and some of them have been absorbed in various Services
also. What I was saying exactly has been now clarified if at all a
clarification was called for in the interview that I gave on the plane to The
Hindustan Times. The main point is that we are always willing to talk to those
young men who are our own children, and who are our own boys who have been led
astray. Naturally, it is implied and also understood that they must give up
arms and they must come back home. I will use the exact word. My friend was
present there when I was saying that I was talking like a father to the young
children that if in the family the sons go astray or get alienated, it is my
duty as head of the family to invite them back, try to remove their doubts and
suspicions. I stand by that. That is what I said in all the two speeches.
Fortunately or unfortunately, I was speaking, particularly, in Kazikund in
Urdu. I know Urdu very well. So, I was speaking in chaste Urdu. So many of my
own friends, perhaps, do not understand Urdu. Therefore, when I was talking
about these boys, they thought that I was talking to the militants across the
border or those who have been supported by Pakistan. No; not at all.





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