XI LOK SABHA DEBATES,   Session V (Monsoon) 

Wednesday, August 13/Shravana 22, 1919 (Saka)



Type of Debate: SPECIAL MENTION	

Title:	Regarding Constitution (Eighty-First Amendment) Bill, 1997.

TEXT :
 The Lok Sabha met at one minute past Eleven of the Clock


(MR. SPEAKER IN THE CHAIR)

JUSTICE GUMAN MAL LODHA (PALI):



VÉʺ]õºÉ MÉÖ¨ÉÉxÉ ¨É±É ±ÉÉäføÉ ({ÉɱÉÒ) : ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ¨ÉèÆxÉä Bb÷VÉxÉǨÉèÆ]õ ¨ÉÉä¶ÉxÉ ÊnùªÉÉ ½þè*
... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)


SHRIMATI SUSHMA SWARAJ (SOUTH DELHI):



¸ÉÒ¨ÉiÉÒ ºÉֹɨÉÉ º´É®úÉVÉ (nùÊIÉhÉ Ênù±±ÉÒ) : ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ VÉÒ, ¨ÉèÆ ¨Éʽþ±ÉÉ +É®úIÉhÉ Ê´ÉvÉäªÉEò
Eòä ºÉ¨¤ÉxvÉ ¨ÉäÆ EòÖUô Eò½þxÉÉ SÉɽþiÉÒ ½þÚÆ* 
... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)


			... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER : I make you one request.

			... (Interruptions)

SHRI P.R. DASMUNSI (HOWRAH): I have a very important matter. (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER : Please sit down. Please take your seat. I will allow
everybody one by one. I would request you all to please take your seats.

			... (Interruptions)

MR.  DEPUTY-SPEAKER :  Please take your seat.  Shri Sontosh Mohan Dev will
speak now.  I have allowed him on Adjournment Motion.

JUSTICE GUMAN MAL LODHA (PALI):



VÉʺ]õ¨É MÉÖ¨ÉÉxÉ ¨É±É ±ÉÉäføÉ :  ʤɽþÉ®ú ¨ÉäÆ ®úɹ]Å{ÉÊiÉ ¶ÉɺÉxÉ ±ÉÉMÉÚ Eò®úxÉä Eòä ʱÉB {É]õxÉÉ ½þÉ<Ç
EòÉä]õÇ xÉä VÉÉä VÉVɨÉèÆ]õ ÊnùªÉÉ ½þè, ¨ÉèÆxÉä =ºÉEòä ºÉ¨¤ÉxvÉ ¨ÉäÆ xÉÉäÊ]õºÉ ÊnùªÉÉ ½þè* ...
(´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)





={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : ¨ÉèÆ +¦ÉÒ SÉèEò Eò®úiÉÉ ½þÚÆ*


			... (Interruptions)

SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV (SILCHAR): On the request of Shrimati Sushma Swaraj,
the Prime Minister has agreed to reply. After that, you can call me. You can
ask Shrimati Sushma Swaraj to speak now.

SHRIMATI SUSHMA SWARAJ (SOUTH DELHI):



¸ÉÒ¨ÉiÉÒ ºÉֹɨÉÉ º´É®úÉVÉ :  ºÉÆiÉÉä¹É ¨ÉÉä½þxÉ nùä´É VÉÒ, ¤É½þÖiÉ-¤É½þÖiÉ vÉxªÉ´ÉÉnù* <ºÉÒ iÉ®ú½þ EòÉ iÉä´É®ú
+MÉ®ú ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä {ÉÖ¯û¹É ºÉÉlÉÒ +{ÉxÉÉ ±ÉäÆMÉä iÉÉä ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÉ EòÉ¨É ½þÒ ¤ÉxÉ VÉÉBMÉÉ* |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ
¤É½þÖiÉ =nùÉ®ú ¨ÉxÉ ºÉä ¨Éä®úä +ÉOɽþ EòÉä º´ÉÒEòÉ®ú Eò®úEòä ¤Éè`öä ½þèÆ* ¨ÉèÆ +É{ÉEòä ¨ÉÉvªÉ¨É ºÉä ªÉ½þ
Eò½þxÉÉ SÉɽþiÉÒ ½þÚÆ 
...  (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)





={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : ½þ®ú +Énù¨ÉÒ EòÉä SÉÉÆºÉ Ê¨É±ÉäMÉÉ* +É{É UôÉäc÷É <ÆiÉVÉÉ®ú EªÉÉäÆ xɽþÒÆ Eò®úiÉä? ¨ÉèÆ
½þ®ú ÊEòºÉÒ EòÉä B±ÉÉ>ð Eò°üÆMÉÉ*


 RE: CONSTITUTION (EIGHTY-FIRST AMENDMENT) BILL.


¸ÉÒ¨ÉiÉÒ ºÉֹɨÉÉ º´É®úÉVÉ (nùÊIÉhÉ Ênù±±ÉÒ) :  ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ VÉÒ, Ê{ÉUô±Éä iÉÒxÉ ºÉjÉÉäÆ ºÉä
¨Éʽþ±ÉÉ +É®úIÉhÉ Ê´ÉvÉäªÉEò EòÒ nùÖMÉÇÊiÉ ½þÉä ®ú½þÒ ½þè* ½þ®ú ºÉjÉ Eòä +ÆiÉ ¨ÉäÆ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú Eò½þiÉÒ ½þè ÊEò
+MɱÉä ºÉjÉ Eòä +É®ú¨¦É ¨ÉäÆ ªÉ½þ Ê¤É±É ±ÉäEò®ú +ÉBMÉÒ* Ê{ÉUô±Éä iÉÒxÉ ºÉjÉÉäÆ ºÉä ªÉ½þ ¤ÉÉiÉ SÉ±É ®ú½þÒ ½þè*
¨ÉèÆ {ÉÖ®úÉxÉÒ ¦ÉÚʨÉEòÉ xÉ ¤ÉxÉÉiÉä ½þÖB Eòä´É±É |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ ºÉä ªÉ½þ Eò½þxÉÉ SÉɽþiÉÒ ½þÚÆ ÊEò
Ê{ÉUô±Éä ºÉjÉ Eòä ʤɱEòÖ±É +ÉÊJÉ®úÒ ÊnùxÉ +É{ÉxÉä ªÉ½þ Ê¤É±É EòÆʺÉb÷®úä¶ÉxÉ Eòä ʱÉB ªÉ½þÉÆ ®úJÉ ÊnùªÉÉ lÉÉ*



+Éä uÉ®úÉ VÉÉ®úÒ



¸ÉÒ¨ÉiÉÒ ºÉֹɨÉÉ º´É®úÉVÉ VÉÉ®úÒ
¤É½þÖiÉ ¨ÉÖʶEò±É Eòä ¤ÉÉnù ®úJÉÉ MɪÉÉ lÉÉ, ¨ÉMÉ®ú ®úJÉÉ MɪÉÉ lÉÉ* EòɪÉnùä ºÉä SÉÉʽþªÉä iÉÉä ªÉ½þ lÉÉ ÊEò <ºÉ
ºÉjÉ EòÉ |ÉÉ®ú¨¦É =ºÉ Ê¤É±É Eòä EòƺÉÒc÷ä¶ÉxÉ ºÉä ½þÉäiÉÉ ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ¤ÉÉ®ú ¤ÉÉ®ú Eò½þÉ MɪÉÉ ÊEò
¤ÉÒ.B.ºÉÒ.  ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉÉiÉ iÉªÉ ½þÉäMÉÒ, +MɱÉä ½þ¡iÉä +ɪÉäMÉÉ* +ÆiÉ ¨ÉäÆ MÉÒiÉÉ VÉÒ xÉä Eò½þÉ ÊEò ªÉ½þÉÆ
ºÉ¨ÉZÉ ¤ÉxÉÒ ½þè ÊEò 11 +Éè®ú 12 EòÉä ªÉ½þ Ê¤É±É +ɪÉäMÉÉ* =ºÉEòÉ ¨ÉiÉ±É¤É ªÉ½þ lÉÉ ÊEò 11 +Éè®ú 12 EòÉä <ºÉ ʤɱÉ
{É®ú SÉSÉÉÇ ½þÉäMÉÒ +Éè®ú SÉSÉÉÇ Eòä ¤ÉÉnù ´ÉÉä]õ EòÒ xÉÉè¤ÉiÉ +ɪÉäMÉÒ, Ê¡ò®ú Ê¤É±É EòÉä +ÉMÉä ¤ÉgøɪÉäÆMÉä*
±ÉäÊEòxÉ Eò±É ªÉ½þ Ê¤É±É +É<Ç]õ¨É xÉÆ.  20 {É®ú lÉÉ +Éè®ú +ÉVÉ ¦ÉÒ Ê±Éº]õ ¨ÉäÆ xÉÒSÉä ®úJÉÉ ½þÖ+É ½þè* =ºÉºÉä
ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú EòÒ xÉÒªÉiÉ xɽþÒÆ ±ÉMÉiÉÒ ÊEò ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú <ºÉ Ê¤É±É {É®ú TÉSÉÉÇ Eò®úÉxÉÉ SÉɽþiÉÒ ½þè ªÉÉ ´ÉÉä]õ Eò®úÉxÉÉ
SÉɽþiÉÒ* ¨ÉèÆ |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ ºÉä Eò½þxÉÉ SÉɽþiÉÒ ½þÚÆ ÊEò ºÉÉ®úÒ EòÒ ºÉÉ®úÒ |ÉÊFòªÉÉ ºÉ¨ÉÉ{iÉ
½þÉä MÉ<Ç ½þè* Ê¤É±É VÉÉ<Æ]õ ºÉä±ÉäE]õ Eò¨Éä]õÒ ¨ÉäÆ VÉÉ SÉÖEòÉ ½þè, =ºÉEòÒ Ê®úEò¨ÉäÆb÷ä¶ÉxºÉ +É SÉÖEòÒ
½þèÆ, ºÉ´ÉÇnù±ÉÒªÉ ¤Éè`öEòäÆ +É{É ±Éä SÉÖEòä ½þèÆ* +É{ÉEòÉ +{ÉxÉÉ ¨ÉxÉ <ºÉ Ê¤É±É EòÉä {ÉÉÊ®úiÉ Eò®úÉxÉä EòÉ ¤ÉxÉÉ
½þÖ+É ½þè* Ê¡ò®ú EªÉÉ EòÉ®úhÉ ½þè ÊEò <ºÉ Ê¤É±É EòÉä <iÉxÉÉ xÉÒSÉä ±ÉÉiÉä ½þèÆ?  Eòä´É±É +ÉVÉ EòÉ ÊnùxÉ
½þ¨ÉÉ®úä {ÉÉºÉ ½þè, Eò±É |ÉÉ<´Éä]õ ¨É訤ɮú Ê¤É±É ½þÉäMÉÉ +Éè®ú 15 +MɺiÉ EòÉä ºÉjÉ ºÉ¨ÉÉ{iÉ ½þÉä
VÉɪÉäMÉÉ* +É{ÉEòÒ xÉÒªÉiÉ ¨ÉäÆ BäºÉÉ EªÉÉ ½þè ÊEò <ºÉ Ê¤É±É EòÉä {ÉÉºÉ xɽþÒÆ Eò®úÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ?
|ÉvÉÉxɨÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ ®úèº{ÉÉÆb÷ Eò®úäÆ ÊEò nùä¶É EòÒ ¨Éʽþ±ÉÉ+ÉäÆ Eòä ºÉÉlÉ ªÉ½þ ÊJɱɴÉÉc÷ Eò¤É iÉEò SɱÉiÉÉ
®ú½þäMÉÉ +Éè®ú EªÉÉäÆ xɽþÒÆ <ºÉ Ê¤É±É {É®ú SÉSÉÉÇ Eò®úEòä <ºÉEòÉä {ÉÉÊ®úiÉ Eò®úÉiÉä?  +¦ÉÒ |ÉvÉÉxɨÉÆjÉÒ
VÉÒ BEò ʨÉxÉ]õ Eòä ʱɪÉä ®úèº{ÉÉÆb÷ Eò®ú nùäÆ, ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÉ EòÉ¨É ½þÉä VÉɪÉäMÉÉ*





			
... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)


MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER :  Why can you not listen to me? Please listen to me.

			... (Interruptions)




={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : ±ÉÉäføÉ VÉÒ, +É{ÉEòÉ Bb÷VÉxÉǨÉäÆ]õ ¨ÉÉä¶ÉxÉ º{ÉÒEò®ú ºÉɽþ¤É Eòä {ÉÉºÉ +Æb÷®ú
EòƺÉÒc÷ä¶ÉxÉ ½þè* 

He will let you know soon about it.

			... (Interruptions)


SHRIMATI GEETA MUKHERJEE (PANSKURA): Sir, you know that the Business  Advisory
Committee yesterday unanimously decided that the discussion on this Bill would
be taken up in this Session itself...(Interruptions)

SHRIMATI SUSHMA SWARAJ (SOUTH DELHI):



¸ÉÒ¨ÉiÉÒ ºÉֹɨÉÉ º´É®úÉVÉ :  ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ VÉÒ, |ÉvÉÉxɨÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ ®úèº{ÉÉÆb÷ Eò®úxÉä Eòä ʱɪÉä
JÉc÷ä ½þèÆ..





={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : EªÉÉ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú ´ÉÖ¨ÉèxÉ Ê¤É±É Eòä ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ EòÖUô Eò½þxÉÉ SÉɽþäMÉÒ?


			... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER : Please listen to the Prime Minister.



THE  PRIME  MINISTER  (SHRI I.K. GUJRAL): Sir, I rise to respond positively to
the spirit of the interventions that have been made not only  today  but  ever
since this issue came up. I have repeatedly reaffirmed my faith in this. And I
reaffirm  it  again. I believe and I feel that the women in India must come up
not only  socially  but  also  politically.  And  women's  empowerment  is  an
important  belief  in itself. I do not have to really carry conviction on this
because, I think, my hon. friends will accept  that.  The  difficulty  is  not
about  my  faith  in it; the difficulty is not about my commitment on this but
the difficulty basically is about the type of various  objections  or  various
suspicions  or various doubts that have been raised. I do not want to run down
anybody. I do not want to say that somebody is wrong or somebody is right.  In
this  House,  Sir, whenever we have said in the past, whenever we have thought
of a far-reaching social measure, we have always felt  that  a  consensus  was
extremely  important.  Therefore, I would be dishonest if I try to take refuge
under this thing or under that thing, on the technical ground or non-technical
ground. The reality is this. I do not mean disrespect to anybody  when  I  say
this  thing.  One may like to confess it or may not. But I want to confess it.
My  confession  is  that   in   every   political   party,   there   are   two
opinions...(Interruptions)

SHRI NIRMAL KANTI CHATTERJEE (DUMDUM): No...(Interruptions)

SHRI I.K. GUJRAL: Yes...(Interruptions)


SHRI NIRMAL KANTI CHATTERJEE :  There are no two opinions in the  Left.    The
Left is identical in this...(Interruptions)

SHRI I.K. GUJRAL: Let me complete it...(Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER : Please take your seat. Let him complete.

			... (Interruptions)

MR.  DEPUTY-SPEAKER:  Let him complete.  Please sit down.

			...  (Interruptions)

SHRI I.K.  GUJRAL:  Let me complete.  The point that I am trying  to  make  is
that  basically  there  are  many  respectable  exceptions and I respect those
respectable exceptions.  I know that there is no division in the Left.  I know
that...(Interruptions)

MR.  DEPUTY-SPEAKER:  Why are you so impatient?

			...  (Interruptions)

SHRI I.K.  GUJRAL:  I will be letting down  the  individual  Members  for  the
privacy  and  confidence  that they have reposed in me if I tell you what they
say when they come and talk to me.  And I repeat that except the  Left,  there
is division in every Party...(Interruptions)

SHRI P.R.  DASMUNSI :  We are not going to accept that...(Interruptions)




={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ : ¨ÉèÆ ºÉ¤ÉEòÉä +±ÉÉ>ð Eò°üÆMÉÉ* BEò BEò Eò®úEòä ¤ÉÉäʱɪÉä*




SHRI SARAD PAWAR (BARAMATI):



¸ÉÒ ¶É®únù {É´ÉÉ®ú (¤ÉÉ®úɨÉiÉÒ) : ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ xÉä ¨Éä®úÒ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ Eòä
¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ BEò MɱÉiÉ ¤ÉªÉÉxÉ ÊnùªÉÉ ½þè* <ºÉ ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ÊEòºÉÒ <xÉÊb÷Ê´ÉWÉÖ+±É EòÒ EòÉä<Ç +Éä{ÉÒÊxɪÉxÉ ½þÉä
ºÉEòiÉÒ ½þè ¨ÉMÉ®ú ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ºÉ¨ÉÚSÉÒ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ EòÒ ®úÉªÉ <ºÉ ¤ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉäÆ ªÉ½þ ½þè ÊEò |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ <ºÉ
|ɺiÉÉ´É EòÉä ±ÉÉBÆ +Éè®ú ½þ¨É =xÉEòÉ ºÉ¨ÉlÉÇxÉ Eò®úäÆMÉä* ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ +ÉVÉ ¦ÉÒ ªÉ½þ ®úÉªÉ ½þè +Éè®ú Eò±É ¦ÉÒ ªÉ½þÒ
®ú½þäMÉÒ* 
... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)
 ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä ¨ÉàÊxÉ¡òàº]õÉä ¨ÉäÆ iÉÉä ÊnùªÉÉ lÉÉ ¨ÉMÉ®ú ¨ÉèÆ ªÉ½þ ´ÉÉnùÉ Eò®úxÉÉ
SÉɽþiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò ªÉÚxÉÉ<]õàb÷ £òÆ]õ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú ¨Éʽþ±ÉÉ+ÉäÆ Eòä ʱÉB 33 |ÉÊiɶÉiÉ +É®úIÉhÉ EòÉ Ê¤É±É ºÉnùxÉ
¨ÉäÆ ±ÉÉB* ½þ¨É <ºÉEòÉ ºÉ{ÉÉä]õÇ Eò®úäÆMÉä, <ºÉEòä ʱÉB Ê´½þ{É <¶ªÉÚ Eò®úäÆMÉä* 
... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)


Such a statement made by the Prime Minister himself is  the  most  unfortunate
thing.    I    will    request   the   Prime   Minister   to   withdraw   that
statement...(Interruptions)



SHRI P.R. DASMUNSI (HOWRAH): The Prime Minister must withdraw  this  statement
categorically.  He may take the responsibility for his own Front but he should
not cast aspersions on any other Party. He will have to make it clear.  It  is
not  a  question  of  an  individual.  It  is  the  question  of  a  political
institution. The Congress Party made it clear in its manifesto as also on  the
floor  of  the House twice that it would issue a whip. We stand by it. How can
the Prime Minister say that the Left is clear on it and others are  not  clear
on  it?  The  Prime Minister must categorically withdraw it first. We will not
accept it.



DR. GIRIJA VYAS (UDAIPUR):



b÷É. ÊMÉÊ®úVÉÉ ´ªÉÉºÉ (=nùªÉ{ÉÖ®ú) : ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú EòÉä +{ÉxÉÒ <SUôÉ EòÉä ºÉnùxÉ ¨ÉäÆ
º{ɹ]õ Eò®úxÉÉ {Éc÷äMÉÉ* +{ÉxÉÒ MɱÉÊiɪÉÉäÆ EòÉä |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ nùںɮúÉäÆ {É®ú ±ÉÉnù xɽþÒÆ ºÉEòiÉä*
|ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ EòÉä ºÉƪÉÖEiÉ ¨ÉÉäSÉÉÇ EòÉä ºÉƦÉɱÉxÉÉ SÉÉʽþB +Éè®ú nùںɮúÒ {ÉÉÊ]õǪÉÉäÆ {É®ú +É®úÉä{É
xɽþÒÆ ±ÉMÉÉxÉÉ SÉÉʽþB* 
... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)
 ºÉƪÉÖEiÉ ¨ÉÉäSÉÉÇ EòÉä ºÉƦÉɱÉxÉä EòÒ <SUôÉ |ÉvÉÉxÉ
¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ EòÉä b÷à´É±É{É Eò®úxÉÒ {Éc÷äMÉÒ* ½þà±{ɱÉàºÉxÉàºÉ ºÉä EòÉ¨É xɽþÒÆ SɱÉäMÉÉ ÊEò ¨ÉèÆ 14
{ÉÉÊ]õǪÉÉäÆ ¨ÉäÆ ÊPÉ®úÉ ½þÖ+É ½þÚÆ* +É{É +{ÉxÉÒ MɱÉiÉÒ EòÉä nùںɮúÉäÆ {É®ú ¨ÉiÉ b÷ÉʱɪÉä* 
... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)




SHRI ILIYAS AZMI (SHAHABAD):



¸ÉÒ <ʱɪÉÉºÉ +ÉVɨÉÒ (¶Éɽþ¤ÉÉnù) : ªÉ½þÉÆ ªÉä ¨ÉMÉ®ú¨ÉSUô Eòä +ÉƺÉÚ ¤É½þÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* ¤ÉèEò´Éb÷Ç E±ÉɺÉ
EòÒ ¨Éʽþ±ÉÉBÆ +ÉVÉ VªÉÉnùÉ Ê{ÉVôc÷Ò ½þèÆ* +MÉ®ú ¨Éʽþ±ÉÉ+ÉäÆ EòÉ Ê{ÉUôc÷É{ÉxÉ nùÚ®ú Eò®úxÉÉ ½þè iÉÉä VÉÉä
Ê{ÉUôc÷Ò VÉÉÊiɪÉÉäÆ EòÒ ¨Éʽþ±ÉÉBÆ ½þèÆ =xÉEòÉä +É®úIÉhÉ nùÉä iÉ¤É ½þ¨É ¨ÉÉxÉäÆMÉä ÊEò +É{É =xÉEòÉä +ÉMÉä
¤ÉgøÉxÉä EòÒ ºÉÉäSÉ ®úJÉiÉä ½þèÆ*
... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)
 ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ®úÉVÉxÉÒÊiÉ ¨ÉäÆ +É®úIÉhÉ ºÉä Eò¦ÉÒ ÊEòºÉÒ EòÉ
¦É±ÉÉ xɽþÒÆ ½þÖ+É +Éè®ú xÉ ½þÉäxÉä ´ÉɱÉÉ ½þè* +MÉ®ú ¨Éʽþ±ÉÉ+ÉäÆ Eòä ½þ¨ÉnùnùÇ ½þÉä iÉÉä VÉxÉiÉÉ nù±É EòÒ ºÉÉ®úÒ
Ê]õEò]õ ¨Éʽþ±ÉÉ+ÉäÆ EòÉä nùä nùÉä, ¨ÉèÆ =ºÉEòÉ º´ÉÉMÉiÉ Eò°üÆMÉÉ* +MÉ®ú ¨Éʽþ±ÉÉ+ÉäÆ Eòä ½þ¨ÉnùnùÇ ½þèÆ iÉÉä
+{ÉxÉÒ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ ¨ÉäÆ ºÉÉè |ÉÊiɶÉiÉ ºÉÒ]õäÆ ¨Éʽþ±ÉÉ+ÉäÆ EòÉä nùä nùÉä* 
... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)


MR.  DEPUTY-SPEAKER:  Shri  Iliyas Azmi, you have already had your say. Please
take your seat. Let Shri George Fernandes speak. Please take your seat.



¸ÉÒ <ʱɪÉÉºÉ +ÉVɨÉÒ VÉÉ®úÒ

SHRI ILIYAS AZMI (SHAHABAD):



¸ÉÒ <ʱɪÉÉºÉ +ÉVɨÉÒ  :    +MÉ®ú  ªÉ½þ +É®úIÉhÉ ÊnùªÉÉ MɪÉÉ 
...  (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)
 JÉÚxÉ ¤É½þäMÉÉ +Éè®ú EòÖUô
xɽþÒÆ ½þÉäMÉÉ* 
...  (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)





±ÉÉ`öÒ +Éè®ú {ÉÖÊ±ÉºÉ =xÉEòÉä xɽþÒÆ ®úÉäEò ºÉEòäMÉÒ*


MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Will you sit down now?

			... (Interruptions)

MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Shri Iliyas Azmi, please sit down.

SHRI ILIYAS AZMI (SHAHABAD):



¸ÉÒ <ʱɪÉÉºÉ +ÉVɨÉÒ :  ¤ÉɤÉÉ ºÉɽþä¤É +¨¤Éäb÷Eò®ú Eòä +ÉÆnùÉä±ÉxÉ EòÉä vÉEEòÉ {ɽþÖÆSÉäMÉÉ*


MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Why don't you allow him to conclude?

			... (Interruptions)

SHRI ILIYAS AZMI (SHAHABAD):



¸ÉÒ <ʱɪÉÉºÉ +ÉVɨÉÒ (¶Éɽþ¤ÉÉnù) : ªÉ½þ ºÉ¨ÉÉVÉ EòÉä ºÉ¨ÉÉ{iÉ Eò®úxÉä EòÒ ºÉÉÊVÉ¶É Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þèÆ, =ºÉ
ºÉÉÊVÉ¶É EòÉä ºÉ¡ò±É xɽþÒÆ ½þÉäxÉä ÊnùªÉÉ VÉɪÉäMÉÉ*




SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES (NALANDA):



¸ÉÒ VÉÉVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇxb÷ÒVÉ (xÉɱÉxnùÉ) : ={ÉÉvªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ¨ÉÖZÉä |ÉvÉÉxÉ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ Eòä
¤ÉªÉÉxÉ {É®ú +É{ÉÊiiÉ ½þè +Éè®ú ´É½þ +É{ÉÊiiÉ nùÉä EòÉ®úhÉÉäÆ EòÉä ±ÉäEò®ú ½þè* BEò iÉÉä <x½þÉäÆxÉä VÉÉä Eò½þÉ ÊEò
´ÉɨÉ{ÉÆlÉÒ nù±ÉÉäÆ EòÉä UôÉäc÷Eò®ú ¤ÉÉEòÒ ºÉÉ®úÒ {ÉÉÊ]õǪÉÉÆ <ºÉ {É®ú +É{ÉºÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¤ÉÆ]õÒ ½þÖ<Ç ½þèÆ* iÉÉä ¨ÉèÆ
<ºÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉä +º´ÉÒEòÉ®ú Eò®úiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* ½þ¨ÉxÉä +{ÉxÉÒ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ EòÒ ¦ÉÚʨÉEòÉ ¶ÉÖ°ü ºÉä <ºÉ ºÉnùxÉ ¨ÉäÆ +Éè®ú
<ºÉ ºÉnùxÉ Eòä ¤Éɽþ®ú +Éè®ú ʺɱÉäE]õ Eò¨Éä]õÒ ¨ÉäÆ ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä |ÉÊiÉÊxÉÊvÉ ¸ÉÒ xÉÒiÉÒ¶É EòÖ¨ÉÉ®ú lÉä, =xÉEòÒ
+{ÉxÉÒ Ê]õ{{ÉhÉÒ {É®ú ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ xÉä +{ÉxÉÒ ¦ÉÚʨÉEòÉ ¤É½þÖiÉ º{ɹ]õ EòÒ lÉÒ* 
... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)
½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ
¦ÉÚʨÉEòÉ ªÉ½þ ½þè ÊEò ½þ¨É <ºÉ Ê´ÉvÉäªÉEò Eòä ºÉ¨ÉlÉÇEò ½þè* <ºÉ Ê´ÉvÉäªÉEò Eòä >ð{É®ú BEò ºÉƶÉÉävÉxÉ ½þ¨É nùä
SÉÖEòä ½þèÆ, =ºÉEòÉ xÉÉäÊ]õºÉ ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉä +É MɪÉÉ ½þè* ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÉ ºÉƶÉÉävÉxÉ ªÉ½þ ½þè ÊEò VÉÉä ¨Éʽþ±ÉÉ+ÉäÆ EòÉ
+É®úIÉhÉ ½þè =ºÉ¨ÉäÆ Ê{ÉUôc÷ä ´ÉMÉÉäÇÆ EòÒ ¨Éʽþ±ÉÉ+ÉäÆ EòÉ BEò ʴɶÉä¹É +É®úIÉhÉ ½þÉäxÉÉ SÉÉʽþB* ...
(´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) ±ÉäÊEòxÉ ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ =ºÉEòä ºÉÉlÉ ªÉ½þ ¦ÉÒ ¦ÉÚʨÉEòÉ ½þè ÊEò ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉ VÉÉä ºÉƶÉÉävÉxÉ ½þè +MÉ®ú
=ºÉä ªÉ½þ ºÉnùxÉ +º´ÉÒEòÉ®ú Eò®úiÉÉ ½þè, iÉÉä ¦ÉÒ ½þ¨É =ºÉ Ê´ÉvÉäªÉEò EòÉä {ÉÉÊ®úiÉ Eò®úÉxÉä Eòä ʱÉB +{ÉxÉÉ ´ÉÉä]õ
nùäÆMÉä* ªÉ½þ ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ EòÒ ¦ÉÚʨÉEòÉ ½þè* <ºÉʱÉB |ÉvÉÉxɨÉÆjÉÒ VÉÒ +ÉVÉ nù±ÉÉäÆ Eòä ¦ÉÒiÉ®ú,
+MÉ®ú +É{ÉEòä nù±É Eòä ¦ÉÒiÉ®ú <ºÉ {É®ú <ºÉ |ÉEòÉ®ú EòÒ EòÉä<Ç ¦ÉÚʨÉEòÉ xɽþÒÆ ½þè, ¨ÉèÆ ªÉ½þ iÉÉä xɽþÒÆ
VÉÉxÉiÉÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò ´Éä nù±É EòÉèxÉ ºÉä ½þèÆ, ±ÉäÊEòxÉ VÉÉä ¦ÉÒ nù±É ½þèÆ ½þ¨É <iÉxÉÉ iÉÉä VÉÉxÉiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò ªÉ½þ
Ê´ÉvÉäªÉEò +ÉVÉ ±ÉÉxÉä Eòä ʱÉB <ºÉ ºÉnùxÉ ¨ÉäÆ Ê´É{ÉIÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¤Éè`öä ½þÖB ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉä +É{ÉÊiiÉ xɽþÒÆ ½þè*
+É{ÉÊiiÉ +É{ÉEòä iÉlÉÉEòÊlÉiÉ ªÉÚxÉÉ<Ê]õb÷ £òÆ]õ ¨ÉäÆ ½þèÆ* <ºÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉä +É{ÉEòÉä º´ÉÒEòÉ®ú Eò®úxÉÉ SÉÉʽþB
+Éè®ú ½þ¨ÉäÆ ={Énùä¶É nùäxÉä EòÒ VÉMɽþ {É®ú +É{É ¤ÉÉEòÒ ºÉÉ®úä EòɨÉÉäÆ EòÉä UôÉäc÷ nùÒÊVÉB, =ºÉ Ê´ÉvÉäªÉEò EòÉä
+¦ÉÒ <ºÉ ºÉnùxÉ Eòä +Ænù®ú ±ÉÒÊVÉB, ½þ¨ÉäÆ EòÉä<Ç +É{ÉÊiiÉ xɽþÒÆ ½þè*


SHRI I.K. GUJRAL: Sir, I have great respect for my friend, Shri George
Fernandes. His social attitudes are well known all over the country. His
commitment to the gender equality is well known. I respect him. His commitment
to the cause is known as is mine. So, both of us are on the same side so far
as the commitment to the gender equality is concerned. But Shri Fernandes is a
Member of this House for a long time and his parliamentary skills are

unrivalled. There is no doubt about that. And, he has said what I have said.
He has confirmed that 


+¨ÉäÆb÷¨ÉäÆ]õ VÉÉä <ºÉ¨ÉäÆ ½þèÆ ´Éä ´É½þÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò½þiÉä ½þèÆ VÉÉä Êb÷´ÉÒVÉxÉ Eòä
ʱÉB ¶ÉÉì]õÇ Ê±Éʺ]õb÷ ½þè* 
... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)


SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES (NALANDA):



¸ÉÒ VÉÉVÉÇ ¡òxÉÉÇxb÷ÒVÉ :  nùäÊJɪÉä +É{É ¨Éä®úÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ xɽþÒÆ ºÉ¨ÉZÉä ªÉÉ +É{É ªÉ½þÉÆ VÉÉxɤÉÚZÉEò®ú,
iÉÉäc÷¨É®úÉäc÷Eò®ú Eò½þ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* ½þ¨ÉxÉä ªÉ½þ Eò½þÉ ÊEò ½þ¨É Ê´ÉvÉäªÉEò Eòä ʱÉB ´ÉÉä]õ nùäÆMÉä* +É{É Ê´ÉvÉäªÉEò
±ÉÉ<ªÉä +Éè®ú Ê´ÉvÉäªÉEò EòÉä {ÉÉºÉ Eò®úÉxÉä Eòä ʱÉB ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÉ ´ÉÉä]õ ʨɱÉäMÉÉ* ½þ¨ÉÉ®úä ºÉƶÉÉävÉxÉ Eòä >ð{É®ú ¨Éä®úÉ
ºÉ¨ÉlÉÇxÉ ÊxɦÉÇ®ú xɽþÒÆ ½þè* +MÉ®ú ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÉ ºÉƶÉÉävÉxÉ +º´ÉÒEòÉ®ú ½þÉä iÉ¤É ¦ÉÒ ½þ¨É Ê´ÉvÉäªÉEò Eòä {ÉIÉ
¨ÉäÆ JÉc÷ä ½þÉäÆMÉä* 
...  (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)
½þ¨ÉÉ®úä ºÉƶÉÉävÉxÉ EòÉä +É{É ÊMÉ®úÉ nùÒÊVÉB ½þ¨É Ê¡ò®ú ¦ÉÒ <ºÉ
Ê´ÉvÉäªÉEò EòÉä {ÉÉÊ®úiÉ Eò®úɪÉäÆMÉä*


SHRI  I.K.  GUJRAL:  Sir,  I  want  a  guarantee from him that he will pass it
without an amendment. Will he?

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES :  Yes.  That is what I am telling.  I  think,  he  does
not understand Hindi.  I will tell him in English.

	What  we  are  saying  is  that  we  have  given an amendment. If that
amendment is defeated -- even if it is defeated -- we will vote for  the  Bill
in  its  original  form  and see that it is passed. That is my position and my
party's position... (Interruptions)

SHRI I.K. GUJRAL: Will you kindly listen to me... (Interruptions)

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES :  My support is not qualified.  Yours is qualified.




½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉ ªÉ½þ Eò½þxÉÉ ½þè +Éè®ú ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÒ ªÉ½þ ®úÉªÉ ½þè* ´É½þ ®úÉªÉ ½þ¨É ®úJÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ* ´É½þ ®úÉªÉ +É{ÉEòÉä
¨ÉÆVÉÚ®ú xɽþÒÆ ½þè iÉ¤É ¦ÉÒ ½þ¨É <ºÉ Ê¤É±É EòÉä {ÉÉºÉ Eò®úɪÉäÆMÉä* 
... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)


SHRI I.K. GUJRAL: Kindly listen to me... (Interruptions)

SHRI  CHITTA  BASU  (BARASAT):  He  is   very   clear   in   his   attitude...
(Interruptions)

SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES :  I have not bartered away my right...  (Interruptions)

SHRI I.K. GUJRAL: Sir, I want to repeat what I said  in  the  beginning.  One,
that  I  stand  committed  to  the  idea of gender equality and empowerment of
women. That is the main point and I  think,  most  of  us  do  it.  There  are
reservations  on  various  dimensions of it. I am not going to comment on that
whether they are right or wrong, but there are. Some are suspicions, some  are
doubts, some are mind-sets and some are legacies of the past.

	That is why I said in the beginning and I repeat that this is a  major
social  measure.  That  is  why  I  said, persuasion and also accommodation of
various points of view are very much called for.  If  the  Government  is  not
coming  forward to push it to a majority area, it is primarily because we feel
that when a major social change is  coming,  that  major  social  change  does
require  that  we understand each other's point of view. Shri George Fernandes
has one point of view. I may have some different view. Shri  Nitish  Kumar  is
totally violent on this issue. I will not repeat it because I have experienced
it last time. Therefore I will not repeat it now.

SHRI  NITISH  KUMAR  (BARH):  I  am the most nonviolent person; I can never be
violent.

SHRI I.K. GUJRAL: Therefore what I am trying to say is that  let  us  move  in
this  direction.  I  have  requested  the  Speaker also that with his help and
assistance we can get together and evolve  a  consensus.  That  will  be  very
useful.



SHRI  G.M.  BANATWALLA  (PONNANI):  Our  position  is  crystal  clear.  It  is
abundantly known and we are unanimous in that point. I must reiterate that  we
cannot associate ourselves with this Bill unless and until reservation is also
extended  to  the OBCs and the minorities. Let there be no mistake about that.
We grow eloquent on the question of justice to OBC, on the question of justice
to minorities.

SHRIMATI GEETA MUKHERJEE (PANSKURA): Have we started  the  discussion  on  the
Bill? If that is so, let us start the discussion. ...(Interruptions)

SHRI G.M.   BANATWALLA :  Why do they feel shy in empowerment of the depressed
OBC and the depressed minorities?  That is a demand  of  the  social  justice.
Why are the House and the Government shy in the empowerment of the OBC and the
minorities?   Sir,  we have 39 women here in the House; but only four are from
the OBC.  Why do you not empower the OBC also to politically  raise  them  up?
Then the  question  of  the  minorities  is also very clear over here.  Social
justice demands that we must be fair.  This is the time when we must  come  up
for the political empowerment of the OBC and the minorities.  Unless and until
that is done, the Muslim League will not associate itself with this Bill which
will  further perpetuate the social and political inequalities in our country.
...(Interruptions)




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