<b>XI LOK SABHA DEBATES, <i> Session IV (Budget) </i> </b>


<b>XI LOK SABHA DEBATES,  <i> Session IV (Budget) </i>
</b>
XI LOK SABHA DEBATES,   Session IV (Budget) 

Thursday, March 20, 1997 / Phalguna 29, 1918 (Saka)



Type of Debate: NO-DAY-YET-NAMED MOTION (RULE-184)

Title: Motion Under Rule 184 for recalling Governor of Uttar Pradesh.
(Not moved)

TEXT :
1417 hrs.

SHRI JASWANT SINGH (CHITTORGARH): I hold that this motion, standing against my
name, and as admitted by you, more particularly your  filling  many  important
gaps  in  our  law  on  the  subjects involved through your observations, is a
significant  legislative  landmark.  Vital  current  issues  confronting   our
Republic  have  been  addressed. Democracy, conduct of Governors, Governor and
the Union Home Minister, other Ministers, Centre-State  relations,  collective
responsibility  of  Cabinet  are only some of them. As, however, the objective
political situation is different and as I do not wish  to  cause  any  further
contention  between  high  functionaries  of  the  Republic, I do not move the
motion.... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: No, please.

			... (Interruptions)

1418 hours

 (Dr.M. Jagannath and some other hon. Members then came 

 and stood on the floor near the Table.)

MR. SPEAKER: I will allow you after this motion under Rule 184.

			... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: You don't have to come here.  Please go back.

			... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Yes, Mr. Sontosh Mohan Dev.

			... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: We are on Rule 184.

SHRI  ANANTH  KUMAR  (BANGALORE  SOUTH):  Alamatti is a dispute between Telugu
Desam and Janata Dal.... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: We will take it after this motion.

SHRI ANANTH KUMAR (BANGALORE SOUTH): Sir, Karnataka State is well  within  its
power to use 743 TMC of water.

			... (Interruptions)

SHRI ANANTH KUMAR (BANGALORE SOUTH): Sir, what is going on in the House?

MR. SPEAKER : I do not know what is going on.  You better guide me.

			... (Interruptions)

SHRI ANANTH KUMAR (BANGALORE SOUTH): Sir, Karnataka is well within its  rights
with regard to the Bachawat Award... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER : We are on Rule 184. 

			... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER : Not now, please.  Go back to your seats.

			... (Interruptions)

1421 hours


 (At this stage, Dr. M. Jagannath and some other hon. Members

 went back to their seats.)

			... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER : Yes, I know, he has no motion.

			... (Interruptions)

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE AND MINISTER OF COMPANY AFFAIRS (SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM):
Sir, he may not have moved a motion but we can comment on what he has done ...
(Interruptions)   We  are asking the hon. Speaker's permission to comment here
and now			... (Interruptions)

SHRI P.R. DASMUNSI (HOWRAH): Sir, I am on a point of order... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER : Let us hear him first.

			... (Interruptions)

SHRI P.R. DASMUNSI (HOWRAH): Sir, I am on a point of order... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER : Under which rule?

			... (Interruptions)

SHRI P.R. DASMUNSI (HOWRAH): Under Rule 339... (Interruptions) Sir,  Rule  339
says:


        "(1)  A  Member  who has made a motion may withdraw the same by
        leave of the House.

        
        (2)  The  leave shall be signified not upon question but by the
        Speaker taking the pleasure of the House..."

...  (Interruptions) A motion which has been given before the House shall have
to wait and seek the leave of the House to be withdrawn. If the  House  grants
leave then only the leave is granted to withdraw the motion... (Interruptions)
Now it is the property of the House... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER : There is no point of order.

			... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER : This rule applies after the motion has been  moved.    The  hon.
Member said that he was not moving the motion.

			... (Interruptions)

SHRI P.R. DASMUNSI (HOWRAH): In your ruling you said that you had admitted the
motion... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER : No.

			... (Interruptions)

SHRI P.R. DASMUNSI (HOWRAH): Sir, the whole nation knows that you had admitted
it under Rule 184... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER : I had admitted a notice of the motion.  It is not a motion.

			... (Interruptions)

SHRI  SONTOSH  MOHAN  DEV (SILCHAR): Sir, in today's Agenda Paper, Item No.21,
which has been listed... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER : Please, let him speak.

			... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER : I have already allowed Mr. Sontosh Mohan Dev. Give  him  one  or
two minutes. There is nothing wrong.

			... (Interruptions)

SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV (SILCHAR): My purpose of standing here is not  to  stop
the  hon. Speaker from giving his decision. But in this House, this Motion was
allowed to be moved. It is not moved by you. Once the matter  was  allowed  by
you under Rule 193 but the same was not accepted by them. On their demand, the
matter  was  allowed  by  you  to  be  raised  under Rule 184. Now what is the
language of the Motion under Rule 184.(Interruptions)

SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN (MUMBAI - NORTH EAST): What is this? (Interruptions)

SHRI ANANTH KUMAR (BANGALORE SOUTH): That everybody has said. (Interruptions)

SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV (SILCHAR): Mr. Mahajan, you have allowed yourself to be
ashamed. Please sit down. You listen to me. (Interruptions) You cannot reply.

			... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER : I have allowed him to speak.

			... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER : You go ahead.

SHRI  SONTOSH  MOHAN  DEV  (SILCHAR):  In  this  Motion  the  last  line  says
"...therefore, this House do now resolve that the Governor of Uttar Pradesh be
recalled  forthwith".  (Interruptions)  Now  I  would  like to know what their
proposal is. (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER : He is supporting your cause. Why are you worried?



SHRI  SONTOSH MOHAN DEV (SILCHAR): I would like to know from my learned friend
Shri Jaswant Singh that whether it is the same Governor whom Shri Kalyan Singh
and Ms. Mayawati have met and claimed to form the Government. My second  point
is,  whether  it  is a fact that whether the same Governor will administer the
oath of office of the Ministers there or not. My third point that I would like
to know from Shri Jaswant Singh. Can a historical judgement given by the  hon.
Speaker  in  this  House  be  scuttled  by a Member by not allowing it? He has
scuttled it. We want that it should be discussed. We want to know whether  the
law  and  order  situation of that State needs any discussion. We want to know
from the BJP that what programme with Ms. Mayawati as the  Chief  Minister  of
the State has got to bring....(Interruptions) Allow us to discuss the issue.

SHRI P.R. DASMUNSI (HOWRAH): Mr. Speaker, Sir, your ruling is important.  Your
ruling is more sacrosanct.... (Interruptions)

 (Interruptions)

SHRI P.R. DASMUNSI  (HOWRAH):  We  have  a  right  to  speak  in  this  House.
(Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Please, I am on my legs. Shri Dasmunsi, please listen.

SHRI SONTOSH MOHAN DEV (SILCHAR): I want to say one word more. Let me finish.

MR.  SPEAKER: Shri Dasmunsi, wait. Before you say anything you must read. What
is my ruling? You listen to me. At the end what did I say? I said:

        "In the circumstances after giving a  careful  thought  to  all
        aspects of the matter, I admit the Notice of Motion under 184."

	It is the notice which is admitted, not the Motion. I have no right to
compel a Member to move his Motion. How can I do that?

	Matters under Rule 377.



SHRI  P.R.  DASMUNSI  (HOWRAH): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I submit to you about rights
and conventions. (Interruptions) There are no two opinions. I only submit that
you gave the ruling to admit the notices only. I entirely agree  with  you.  I
admit it. (Interruptions)

1432 hours


 (At this stage, Shri  Ramsaggar  and some other hon. Members came 

 and stood on the floor near the Table.)

   (Interruptions) 


MR. SPEAKER: You go back to your seats. I will allow you  all.  You  hear  me.
Enough is enough.

 (Interruptions)

l433 hours


 (At this stage, Shri Ramsagar  and some other hon. Members

 went back to their seats.)

SHRI P.R. DASMUNSI (HOWRAH): They will respect the ruling. What  I  wanted  to
say  is  you  are the custodian and you are running the House. I can tell you.
This discussion is accepted. (Interruptions)  Now that Shri Jaswant  Singh  is
withdrawing it... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER:  He is not withdrawing it.  He is moving  it.

SHRI  P.R.  DASMUNSI (HOWRAH): I am telling you. I am telling you that this is
not the way to take the precious time of the Speaker. If he  has  anything  to
say,  this  is  not  the correct way. This is not the proper way to invoke the
spirit of the nation and the law of the land. (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER:  I think that is enough. 

SHRI RAMSAGAR (BARABANKI):



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=ºÉ{É®ú ½þ¨É ±ÉÉäMÉ SÉSÉÉÇ Eò®úxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þèÆ ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ).. <xÉ ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ xÉä ½þÒ Êu´ÉänùÒ EòÒ
½þiªÉÉ Eò®ú´ÉÉ<Ç ½þè ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)


MR. SPEAKER: I have given my ruling. Nothing more.

	Mr. Finance Minister.

 (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Yes, Mr. Finance Minister...

			... (Interruptions)

SHRI RAM NAIK (MUMBAI NORTH): Sir, I am on a point of order.

MR. SPEAKER: What is your point of order?

SHRI RAM NAIK (MUMBAI NORTH): Sir, my point of order is that  you  have  given
your  ruling.  After that, again they are trying to bring that issue. You have
actually moved to the next item ... (Interruptions)


THE MINISTER OF FINANCE AND MINISTER OF COMPANY AFFAIRS (SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM):

We have not moved to the next item...(Interruptions).

SHRI RAM NAIK (MUMBAI NORTH): Sir, according to the rules, we cannot  go  back
after the next item is announced.

MR. SPEAKER: I wish all Members followed the rules. That is my sincere wish.

SHRI RAM NAIK (MUMBAI NORTH): Sir, we are always cooperating, but they are not
cooperating.

MR. SPEAKER: Yes, Mr. Chidambaram.

SHRI  RAM  NAIK (MUMBAI NORTH): On which subject is he going to speak, Sir? We
will not allow him to speak on the same subject.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: What is that you will not allow. You are not the  Speaker
yet.  Sir, there is now a point raised about the applicability of rule 339. My
learned friend...(Interruptions).

JUSTICE GUMAN MAL LODHA (PALI): That point has been decided  by  Your  Honour,
Sir.

MR. SPEAKER: Let him submit. It may be enlightening all of us.

			... (Interruptions)

SHRI  P.  CHIDAMBARAM:  I  am  submitting  to you, Sir. Why are they afraid of
submission? Just hear my submission.

SHRI RAM NAIK (MUMBAI NORTH): Sir, if you want us to cooperate,  this  is  not
the    way    of    getting   the   cooperation.   We   will   not   cooperate
then...(Interruptions).

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: The Speaker has allowed me to submit...(Interruptions).

Sir, Mr. Dasmunsi...(Interruptions).

SHRI RAM NAIK (MUMBAI NORTH): Sir, so much agenda is there and after moving to
the next item, how can you go back to the same item?...(Interruptions).

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Why are you afraid of a submission? I thought  you  would
use  an  argument  to meet an argument. Why are you afraid of an argument? You
meet an argument with an argument.


SHRIMATI SUSHMA SWARAJ (SOUTH DELHI):



¸ÉÒ¨ÉiÉÒ ºÉÖ¹É¨ÉÉ º´É®úÉVÉ (nùÊIÉhÉ Ênù±±ÉÒ) : +vªÉIÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ¨ÉèÆ VÉÉä °ü±É EòÉä]õ Eò®úxÉä VÉÉ
®ú½þÒ ½þÚÆ =ºÉEòä Ê±ÉB <xÉEòä ¤ÉÉnù +É{É ¨ÉÖZÉä ]õÉ<¨É nùäÆMÉä*


MR. SPEAKER:  I have not given the ruling.  I only pointed out to Mr. Dasmunsi
that it is only a notice and not a motion. That is the clarification I gave.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM: Sir, we are now discussing the applicability of rule 339.
A  point  has  been  made that rule 339(1) has been attracted. Kindly see rule
339. It says: "A member who has made a motion may withdraw the same  by  leave
of  the  House."...(Interruptions).  I am submitting to you, Sir. Why are they
afraid of my submission? I have looked into the rules and I have  looked  into
the  `Kaul  and  Shakdhar'.  Subject  to correction, there is no authoritative
ruling on the word `made'. Therefore, I would humbly submit that you  hear  us
for  a  few minutes on what is the scope of the word `made' and then decide. I
am not saying that you should not decide, I am saying  that  if  there  is  no
ruling  on  the word `made', then natural justice requires that you hear a few
of us on the meaning of the word  `made'  in  the  context  in  which  it  has
occurred. We shall take you to the earlier rules. You are the final authority.
Please hear us for a few minutes...(Interruptions).

MR. SPEAKER:  Have you finished?

SHRI  P.  CHIDAMBARAM:  No,  Sir,  I  have  not.  But  if  they are making any
submission on that point, they can...(Interruptions).

SHRI RAM NAIK (MUMBAI NORTH):  Sir, he has read only rule 339(1).   Now  I  am
referring to  rule  339(2).    It says: "The leave shall be signified not upon
question but by the Speaker taking the pleasure of the  House.    The  Speaker
shall ask:  `Is it your pleasure that the motion be withdrawn?'."  That means,
once the motion is moved, then only he will seek the pleasure  of  the  House.
The meaning of the word `made'...(Interruptions).

SHRI RAMSAGAR (BARABANKI):



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¦ÉÉ®úiÉÒªÉ VÉxÉiÉÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ EòÉ ®úÉVÉ ½þè, ´É½þÉÆ EòÉxÉÚxÉ +Éè®ú ´ªÉ´ÉºlÉÉ ¤É½þÖiÉ JÉ®úÉ¤É ½þè, ±ÉÉäMÉÉäÆ EòÉ
VÉÒxÉÉ ¨ÉÖÊ¶Eò±É ½þÉä ®ú½þÉ ½þè, VÉxÉ-VÉÒ´ÉxÉ jÉºiÉ ½þè, =ºÉºÉä +SUôÒ EòÉxÉÚxÉ ´ªÉ´ÉºlÉÉ =iiÉ®ú
|Énùä¶É EòÒ ½þè +Éè®ú +¤É <ºÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ EòÉ {ÉnùÉÇ¡òÉ¶É ½þÉä SÉÖEòÉ ½þè ÊEò ¥É½¨ÉnùiiÉ Êu´ÉänùÒ EòÒ
½þiªÉÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¦ÉÉ®úiÉÒªÉ VÉxÉiÉÉ {ÉÉ]õÒÇ EòÒ ºÉÉÊVÉ¶É lÉÒ, <ºÉÊ±ÉB ªÉä SÉSÉÉÇ ºÉä ¦ÉÉMÉxÉÉ SÉÉ½þiÉä ½þèÆ*


SHRI  P.  CHIDAMBARAM:  I shall complete my submission, Sir, and then let them
refute my argument.

MR. SPEAKER: Let him submit first. He has to submit it fully.

			... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER : Let us enlighten ourselves. It is a very good thing.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM : Sir, there is a point. You hear both of us.

	Sir,  kindly  look at Chapter XIV. It says that : " Notice of a motion
shall be given  in  writing  addressed  to  the  Secretary-General".  You  are
absolutely  right,  Sir.  A  notice  of  motion was given. The notice was on a
substantive issue asking for the recall of the Governor. Now,  Rule  186  sets
out the various conditions subject to which ...(Interruptions) If you have to,
if you want to interrupt, you can. ...(Interruptions)

SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN (MUMBAI NORTH EAST):



¸ÉÒ |É¨ÉÉänù ¨É½þÉVÉxÉ (¨ÉÖ¨¤É<Ç -- =iiÉ®ú {ÉÚ´ÉÇ) : +¤É ½þ¨É ¨ÉÚ´É xÉ½þÒÆ Eò®ú ®ú½þä ½þèÆ iÉÉä +É{É
Eò½þiÉä ½þèÆ ÊEò ¨ÉÚ´É EòÊ®úB, VÉ¤É ¨ÉÚ´É Eò®ú ®ú½þä lÉä iÉÉä +É{É Eò½þiÉä lÉä ÊEò ¨ÉÚ´É ¨ÉiÉ EòÊ®úB - ªÉ½þ EªÉÉ
½þè ? ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)


MR. SPEAKER : You are tempting me to ...

			... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER : It is a serious thing. Let us listen him.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM : Sir, Shri Ram Naik's point that is not clear to us is  :
How  is  it that the high constitutional authority who had to be recalled five
days ago, today becomes such a wonderful person  that  they  do  not  wish  to
recall  him?  ...(Interruptions)  That  is  the question. Let them answer that
question now. ...(Interruptions)

SHRIMATI SUSHMA SWARAJ (SOUTH DELHI):



¸ÉÒ¨ÉiÉÒ ºÉÖ¹É¨ÉÉ º´É®úÉVÉ (nùÊIÉhÉ Ênù±±ÉÒ) : +vªÉIÉ VÉÒ, ¨ÉÖZÉä ¦ÉÒ EòÖUô Eò½þxÉÉ ½þè ...
(´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)


MR. SPEAKER : Please, let us listen to him. I will allow you also.


SHRI  PRAMOD  MAHAJAN  (MUMBAI  -  NORTH  EAST): You say ...(Interruptions) He
should remain the Governor of U.P. ...(Interruptions) You prove your strength.

SHRI  KRISHAN  LAL  SHARMA (OUTER DELHI): You are not feeling of recalling him
just now. ...(Interruptions)

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM : According to the statement  read  out  by  Shri  Jaswant
Singh  he is a high constitutional authority. ...(Interruptions) Five days ago
he was neither `high', nor he was acting in a constitutional manner nor he was
`an   authority'.   ...(Interruptions)   Today   he   has    become    `high',
`constitutional' and `an authority'! It is because you will go to him tomorrow
and   stand   before   him   and  say  :  `I  take  oath  as  your  Minister.'
...(Interruptions) You will stand before him and say : `I take  oath  as  your
Minister.  I  will  serve  you  loyally'.  That  is  what  you  want  to  say.
...(Interruptions)

SHRI RAM NAIK (MUMBAI NORTH): Sir, I am on a point of order. (Interruptions)

DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI (ALLAHABAD): Sir, he is not quoting any rule. If he is
so  much  interested  in recalling the Governor ...(Interruptions) he may move
it. ...(Interruptions)

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM : Sir, I want to read a rule. ...(Interruptions) They  are
interrupting  me.  I  only want some time to read a rule. I wish to confine to
the rule. ...(Interruptions) If I am diverted, naturally I will  be  diverted.
The rule says that : `A motion may be admissible...' ...(Interruptions)

SHRI VIJAY GOEL (SADAR - DELHI): Sir, I am on a point of order.

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM : When I am reading a rule, what is the point of order?

SHRI VIJAY GOEL (SADAR - DELHI):



¸ÉÒ Ê´ÉVÉªÉ MÉÉäªÉ±É (ºÉnù®ú-Ênù±±ÉÒ) : +vªÉIÉ VÉÒ, ¨Éä®úÉ BEò ¨É½þi´É{ÉÚhÉÇ ¨ÉÉ¨É±ÉÉ ÊxÉªÉ¨É 377 Eòä
+vÉÒxÉ +ÉxÉä ´ÉÉ±ÉÉ ½þè * ªÉ½þÉÆ ºÉnùxÉ EòÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ JÉ®úÉ¤É ÊEòªÉÉ VÉÉ ®ú½þÉ ½þè * <x½þäÆ Ê´É¹ÉªÉ EòÒ ¨É½þiiÉÉ
EòÉ {ÉiÉÉ xÉ½þÒÆ ½þè ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ) +É{É ¨ÉÖZÉä ÊxÉªÉ¨É 377 Eòä +vÉÒxÉ +{ÉxÉä ¨Éè]õ®ú EòÉä ¨ÉÚ´É Eò®úxÉä EòÒ
+xÉÖ¨ÉÊiÉ nùÒÊVÉB ... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)

MR. SPEAKER : Let Shri Chidambaram complete. Shri Goel, please take your seat.

			... (Interruptions)

SHRI P. CHIDAMBARAM : I am reading a rule. Sir, you had said that this  motion
is admissible because it satisfies the condition under Rule 186. Once a motion
is admissible, then we go to Rules 190, 191 and 192. I do not wish to read the
rules.  Rule  190  says  :  "The  Speaker  may, after considering the state of
business in the House ....allot a day or  days  or  part  of  a  day  for  the
discussion  of  any such motion". You will find that nowhere in Chapter XIV is
the   word   `made'   or    `moved'    used    in    connection    with    the
motion....(Interruptions)  I  am  only making a legal submission. Kindly allow
it.

SHRI RAM NAIK (MUMBAI NORTH): That can be done in the court.

SHRI  P.  CHIDAMBARAM  :  You are a law-maker. ...(Interruptions) you make the
laws that are to be governed by. ...(Interruptions) This is a forum  which  is
governed by law as much as any other forum.

	Now, Sir, to the best of my knowledge, subject to correction, it  does
not  use  the word `moved' or `made' anywhere in Chapter XIV. Now, come to the
general rules of procedure, ...(Interruptions) Let me come  to  the  rules  of
procedure.  In  the  Rules of Procedure the portion relating to motions starts
with Rules 338 and 339. Rule 339 says : "A member who has made a motion".  Why
does  it not say : `A member who has moved a motion'? ...(Interruptions) There
must be a distinction between the words `made' and `moved'. ...(Interruptions)
You have given a notice of motion. The notice has been admitted. It is  now  a
motion. Sir, you have admitted the motion. ...(Interruptions) Sir, let him not
interrupt.  I  have  not  completed.  ...(Interruptions)  We have crossed that
stage.




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