<b>XI LOK SABHA DEBATES, <i> Session IV (Budget) </i> </b> XI LOK SABHA DEBATES, Session IV (Budget) Wednesday , May 7, 1997 / Vaisakha 17, 1919 (Saka)
Type of Debate: QUESTION OF PRIVILEGE
Title: Shri Jaswant Singh (MP) moved the motion relating to the alleged delay in sending the intimation regarding arrest of Shri Nitish Kumar, MP on 28 April,1997 in Patna, Bihar and furnishing incorrect information in this respect to the Speaker , Lok Sabha. TEXT : 12.00 hrs.SHRI NITISH KUMAR (BARH):
¸ÉÒ xÉÒiÉÒ¶É EòÖ¨ÉÉ®ú : ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, ¨ÉèÆxÉä Eò±É ½þÒ Ê´É¶Éä¹ÉÉÊvÉEòÉ®ú ½þxÉxÉ EòÉ xÉÉäÊ]õºÉ ÊnùªÉÉ ½þè* º{ÉÒEò®ú ºÉɽþ¤É ºÉä ½þ¨ÉxÉä ¨ÉÖ±ÉÉEòÉiÉ ¦ÉÒ EòÒ lÉÒ* =x½þÉäÆxÉä +ÉVÉ =`öÉxÉä EòÒ <VÉÉVÉiÉ nùÒ lÉÒ ÊEò +É{É =`öÉ<BMÉÉ* <ºÉEòä ºÉ¨¤ÉxvÉ ¨ÉäÆ ¨ÉɨɱÉÉ ªÉ½þ ½þè ÊEò BEò ¨É<Ç EòÉ ±ÉÉäEò ºÉ¦ÉÉ ¤ÉÖ±ÉäÊ]õxÉ {ÉÉ]õÇ ]õÚ, =ºÉEòÉ xɨ¤É®ú 1128 ½þè, <ºÉ¨ÉäÆ +ɪÉÉ ½þè:
"No.1128 Arrest and Release of Shri Nitish Kumar
The following communication dated the 30th April, 1997, addressed to the Speaker, Lok Sabha by the Magistrate, Patna, Bihar was received on the 1st May, 1997:
Shri Nitish Kumar, Member of Lok Sabha was arrested on the 28th April, 1997 under Section 151 of the Cr.P.C. by the Zonal Officer and Sub-Divisional Magistrate, Patna, Bihar for apprehension of breach of peace.
He was released on Personal Bond, the same day."
ªÉ½þ ¤ÉÖ±ÉäÊ]õxÉ ½þè* ºÉ¦ÉÉ{ÉÊiÉ ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, nùÉä ʤÉxnùÖ+ÉäÆ {É®ú ½þ¨ÉÉ®úÉ Ê´É¶Éä¹ÉÉÊvÉEòÉ®ú ½þxÉxÉ EòÉ xÉÉäÊ]õºÉ ½þè*
This is regarding intimation to Speaker regarding arrest, detention etc. and release of Member. Rule 229 states clearly and I quote:
"When a member is arrested on a criminal charge or for a criminal offence or is sentenced to imprisonment by a court or is detained under an executive order, the committing judge, magistrate or executive authority, as the case may be, shall immediately intimate such fact to the Speaker indicating the reasons for the arrest, detention or conviction, as the case may be, as also the place of detention or imprisonment of the member in the appropriate form set out in the Third Schedule."
ªÉ½þÉÆ ºÉÉ¡ò ½þè ÊEò
shall immediately intimate,
+Éè®ú ªÉ½þÉÆ nùäJÉÉ VÉɪÉä, =x½þÉäÆxÉä JÉÖnù Eò½þÉ ½þè ÊEò 28 +|Éè±É EòÉä ¨ÉÖZÉEòÉä ÊMÉ®ú¡iÉÉ®ú ÊEòªÉÉ +Éè®ú <ºÉEòÒ ºÉÚSÉxÉÉ Êb÷ºÊ]ÅE]õ ¨ÉÊVɺ]Åä]õ, {É]õxÉÉ xÉä 30 +|Éè±É EòÉä ´É½þÉÆ ºÉä ¦ÉäVÉÒ ½þè, VÉÉä ªÉ½þÉÆ BEò ¨É<Ç EòÉä ʨɱÉÒ* <¨¨ÉÒÊb÷B]õ EòÉ ¨ÉiÉ±É¤É ½þÉäiÉÉ ½þè, =ºÉÒ ÊnùxÉ ªÉÉ 24 PÉÆ]õä Eòä +xnù®ú, <¨¨ÉÒÊb÷B]õ EòÉ ¨ÉiÉ±É¤É ªÉ½þ xɽþÒÆ ½þÉäiÉÉ ÊEò iÉÒxÉ ÊnùxÉ Eòä ¤ÉÉnù ºÉÚSÉxÉÉ VÉɪÉä* BEò iÉÉä ªÉ½þ ¨ÉɨɱÉÉ ½þè*
... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)
<ºÉEòÉ ¨ÉiÉ±É¤É ½þÉäiÉÉ ½þè PÉÆ]õÉ, nùÉä PÉÆ]õÉ, iÉÒxÉ PÉÆ]õÉ* ʤɽþÉ®ú iÉÉä nùÖÊxɪÉÉ EòÉ, nùä¶É EòÉ +ÆMÉ ½þè, =ºÉºÉä ¤Éɽþ®ú EòèºÉä ½þÉä ºÉEòiÉÉ ½þè, <¨¨ÉÒÊb÷B]õ ¶É¤nù EòÉ +lÉÇ ¤Énù±É xɽþÒÆ ºÉEòiÉÉ ½þè*
nùںɮúÉ {ÉÉ<Æ]õ ½þè, <ºÉ¨ÉäÆ BEò +ºÉiªÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò½þÒ MÉ<Ç ½þè*
It says, `He was released on Personal Bond, the same day.'
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{ɺÉÇxÉ±É ¤ÉÉÆb÷ {É®ú UôÉäc÷É MɪÉÉ ½þè* Eò½þÉÆ ½þè {ɺÉÇxÉ±É ¤ÉÉÆb÷, ªÉ½þ <Æ]õäƶÉxÉ ¨ÉèʱÉÊ¶ÉªÉºÉ ½þè, ªÉ½þ ½þ¨ÉäÆ Êb÷¡òä¨É Eò®úxÉä Eòä ʱÉB ½þè* ªÉ½þ MɱÉiÉ ºÉÚSÉxÉÉ nùÒ MÉ<Ç ½þè, ºÉnùxÉ EòÉä MÉ֨ɮúɽþ ÊEòªÉÉ MɪÉÉ ½þè* `EòÉä±É BÆb÷ ¶ÉEòvÉ®ú' ¨ÉäÆ ºÉÉ¡ò ʱÉJÉÉ ½þè*
... (Interruptions)
MR. CHAIRMAN : You need not go into the details. I am telling you ...
... (Interruptions)
SHRI NITISH KUMAR (BARH):
¸ÉÒ xÉÒiÉÒ¶É EòÖ¨ÉÉ®ú : ¨ÉèÆ +{ÉxÉÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò½þxÉÉ SÉɽþiÉÉ ½þÚÆ* ªÉ½þ ½þÉ=ºÉ Eòä ¤ÉäÊxÉÊ¡ò]õ Eòä ʱÉB ½þè, ¨ÉÖZÉä BEò ʨÉxÉ]õ EòÒ <VÉÉVÉiÉ nùä nùäÆ*
MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Minister of Home Affairs has already been requested, on 06.05. 1997 to furnish comments, officially. Therefore, you need not go further.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI NITISH KUMAR (BARH):
¸ÉÒ xÉÒiÉÒ¶É EòÖ¨ÉÉ®ú : <ºÉ¨ÉäÆ MÞɽþ ¨ÉÆjÉÉ±ÉªÉ EòÉ EòÉä<Ç ºÉ´ÉÉ±É xɽþÒÆ ½þè* `EòÉä±É BÆb÷ ¶ÉEòvÉ®ú' Eòä ¡òÉälÉÇ BÊb÷¶ÉxÉ ¨ÉäÆ {ÉäVÉ xɨ¤É®ú 246 ¨ÉäÆ ºÉÉ¡ò ʱÉJÉÉ ½þè
about
presenting false, forged or fabricated documents to the House or its Committees. I quote:
"It is a breach of privilege and contempt of the House to present false, forged or fabricated documents to either House or to a Committee thereof with a view to deceive them."
ªÉ½þ ºÉÉ¡ò ½þè, ¨ÉèÆxÉä EòÉä<Ç {ɺÉÇxÉ±É ¤ÉÉÆb÷ xɽþÒÆ ÊnùªÉÉ* <ºÉ¨ÉäÆ MÞɽþ ¨ÉÆjÉÉ±ÉªÉ EªÉÉ Eò¨ÉäÆ]õ nùäMÉÉ* +MÉ®ú ¨ÉèÆxÉä {ɺÉÇxÉ±É ¤ÉÉÆb÷ ÊnùªÉÉ ½þè iÉÉä ¨ÉèÆ +¦ÉÒ <ºÉÒ ´ÉEiÉ ºÉnùxÉ EòÒ ºÉnùºªÉiÉÉ ºÉä iªÉÉMÉ{ÉjÉ nùäEò®ú SɱÉÉ VÉÉ>ðÆMÉÉ* <ºÉºÉä ¤ÉgøEò®ú EòÉä<Ç +Éè®ú +ºÉiªÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ xɽþÒÆ ½þÉä ºÉEòiÉÒ* ªÉ½þ ¨ÉÖZÉä Êb÷¡òä¨É Eò®úxÉä Eòä ʱÉB, VɱÉÒ±É Eò®úxÉä Eòä ʱÉB +Éè®ú ½þÉ=ºÉ EòÉä MÉ֨ɮúɽþ Eò®úxÉä Eòä ʱÉB EòÖUô ¤ÉnùʨÉVÉÉVÉ +ÊvÉEòÉÊ®úªÉÉäÆ xÉä Eò½þÉ ½þè* ÊVɱÉÉvÉÒ¶É xÉä ºÉÚSÉxÉÉ ¦ÉäVÉÒ, iÉÒxÉ ÊnùxÉ Eòä ¤ÉÉnù ¦ÉäVÉÒ, ªÉ½þ EòÆ]õä¨{]õ +É¡ò ½þÉ=ºÉ ½þè* ªÉ½þ °ü±É Eòä ¨ÉÖiÉÉʤÉEò ½þè +Éè®ú ʴɶÉä¹ÉÉÊvÉEòÉ®ú EòÉ ºÉÉ¡ò EòäºÉ ¤ÉxÉiÉÉ ½þè* ¨ÉèÆ +ÉOɽþ Eò°üÆMÉÉ ÊEò <ºÉ {É®ú +ÉMÉä EòɪÉÇ´ÉɽþÒ EòÒ VÉÉB*
MR. CHAIRMAN: Shri Nitish Kumar, you know that on such matters, we always get the official version certified and then only we proceed further. Accordingly, the Speaker has already referred this matter to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs for his comments. When we receive his comments, we will go further. How can we do it now? Let us go to the next item -- Zero Hour.
SHRI NITISH KUMAR (BARH):
¸ÉÒ xÉÒiÉÒ¶É EòÖ¨ÉÉ®ú : <ºÉ¨ÉäÆ EªÉÉ +ÉÊ¡òÊ¶ÉªÉ±É ´É¶ÉÇxÉ ½þè, ªÉ½þ ʺɨ{É±É ½þè* ªÉ½þ ºÉÚSÉxÉÉ MɱÉiÉ ½þè ªÉÉ ºÉ½þÒ ½þè
... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)
VÉ¤É ¨ÉèÆ Eò½þ ®ú½þÉ ½þÚÆ ÊEò ¨ÉèÆxÉä {ɺÉÇxÉ±É ¤ÉÉÆb÷ ¡òxÉÒÇ¶É ÊEòªÉÉ ½þÒ xɽþÒÆ*the substance relating to the privilege of a Member of this House -- the privilege arising firstly, from a delayed submission of information about detention and secondly, that submission which in factually an error. Therefore, it is deliberately misleading the House.
Now, your suggestion that this has been sent to the hon. Home Minister, I am afraid, with due respect, misses the point. The hon. Home Minister comes in, when the Government has to explain if it has either failed to do or has done something. In this case, the issue is squarely and only of privilege and the factors involved are the hon. Member, this House and the Chair. In this case, there are only two options open -- either this House should decide the issue of privilege now without reference to the Privileges Committee or to refer it to the Privileges Committee.
In the first case, the House can take cognizance of the matter. This is as per the rules. But if, however, you feel and if the hon. Members feel that the House should not take care of it, then I do urge you to refer the matter immediately to the Privileges Committee and not to the hon. Home Minister. The hon. Home Minister does not even come into the picture. There are only two courses open -- either the House seizes of the matter and immediately dispose of the matter or it may be referred to the Privileges Committee. This is what I urge you to do.
VÉÉxɤÉÚZÉEò®ú <ºÉ |ÉEòÉ®ú EòÉ BEò ¨ÉèºÉäVÉ +ÉiÉÉ ½þè* ÊVɱÉÉvÉÒ¶É ºÉä VÉÉxɤÉÚZÉEò®ú <ºÉ ºÉnùxÉ EòÉä MÉ֨ɮúɽþ Eò®úxÉä EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ ½þÉäiÉÒ ½þè* ºÉnùºªÉ JÉc÷ä ½þÉäEò®ú ¤ÉiÉÉ ®ú½þä ½þèÆ ÊEò ½þ¨É {ɺÉÇxÉ±É ¤ÉÉÆb÷ nùäEò®ú xɽþÒÆ +ÉB* ªÉ½þ +ºÉiªÉ ¤ÉÉiÉ ½þè VÉÉä ÊVɱÉÉvÉÒ¶É xÉä ¦ÉäVÉÒ ½þè* =ºÉEòä ¤ÉÉnù ½þ¨É ®úÉVªÉ ºÉ®úEòÉ®ú ºÉä {ÉÚUôäÆMÉä, SÉÚÆÊEò MÞɽþ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ ªÉ½þÉÆ ¤Éè`öEò®ú Ê®ú{ÉÉä]õÇ xɽþÒÆ nùäÆMÉä, ´É½þ =ºÉ ÊVɱÉÉvÉÒ¶É ºÉä ªÉÉ =ºÉ |Énùä¶É Eòä MÞɽþ ¨ÉÆjÉÒ ºÉä, ¨ÉèÆ xɽþÒÆ VÉÉxÉiÉÉ ÊEò =xÉEòÉ EªÉÉ xÉÉ¨É ½þè, =xɺÉä {ÉÚUôäÆMÉä* =ºÉEòä ¤ÉÉnù xÉÒiÉÒ¶É EòÖ¨ÉÉ®ú Eòä ºÉÉlÉ <xɺÉÉ¡ò ½þÉäMÉÉ* +MÉ®ú ºÉnùxÉ EòÉä <ºÉ {É®ú Ê´ÉSÉÉ®ú Eò®úxÉä ¨ÉäÆ {É®úä¶ÉÉxÉÒ ½þÉä iÉÉä ¨Éä®úÒ +É{ɺÉä |ÉÉlÉÇxÉÉ ½þè ÊEò +MÉ®ú +É{É =ÊSÉiÉ ºÉ¨ÉZÉäÆ, iÉÉä <ºÉÒ IÉhÉ <ºÉ ¨ÉɨɱÉä EòÉä ʴɶÉä¹ÉÉÊvÉEòÉ®ú ºÉʨÉÊiÉ EòÉä ¦ÉäVÉ nùäÆ* ªÉ½þ ºÉnùxÉ EòÒ <VVÉiÉ EòÉ, ºÉnùxÉ Eòä ¨ÉÉxÉ-ºÉ¨¨ÉÉxÉ EòÉ ºÉ´ÉÉ±É ½þè* ªÉ½þ EòÉä<Ç ´ªÉÊEiÉ EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ xɽþÒÆ ½þè*
There are two facts. One is, information is delayed and the other is that the bond was not executed by him. We can rely upon him on these two facts. But generally, the practice which is followed by this House is this. We do not punish anybody without hearing him. If this august body, this Parliament, punishes any officer or anybody without hearing him, then I think, it would not be proper. So, generally, the procedure which is followed by us in this House is, the moment a notice is given, it is sent to the person against whom the notice is given and we call for the information. Generally, we get the information saying that they regret for what they have done. The expression of `regret' is sometimes accepted and sometimes not accepted. In my opinion, in this case, if the notice is given, if it is sent to the Home Minister, it means it is sent to the State Government and through the State Government, it will go to the officer who had not informed this House as he was expected to inform. Now, if the officer expresses regret and begs for pardon, it is for Shri Nitish Kumar, this House and the Presiding Officer to accept that expression of regret. If he comes to the conclusion that it is not sufficient and he should be called to the bar of the House and punished - if that is decided in the wisdom of this House - then, we can do that also. But I do think that the judiciary or the Parliament or any other body which is sitting on judgement on anybody should not proceed against anybody without hearing him. I do think that it would be keeping with the dignity of this House to come to a conclusion properly. I have no doubt in my mind and I know Shri Nitish Kumar. I know what he is saying must be 100 per cent correct and he will ultimately win. But this body should not take any action without hearing the officer. Otherwise, it will not be proper. It may be left for the House to decide...(interruptions)
SHRI GEORGE FERNANDES : We are saying that it should be sent to the Privileges Committee...(interruptions)
SHRI NIRMAL KANTI CHATTERJEE : Sir, he is our respected former Speaker. Taking it to the Privileges Committee does not mean taking an action. He may express regrets about delay...(interruptions)
MR. CHAIRMAN : You have had your say. Please be seated. Now let me hear Shri Sharad Pawar also.
... (Interruptions)
And the House has been wrongly informed that he is released on bond. I think, it is a clear-cut case and we should send it to the Committee of Privileges. I do not say that you take action against any officer. The Committee of Privileges will definitely send a notice to the concerned officer. That Committee will give an opportunity to him. He will get an opportunity to say what he wants to say. There should not be a direct action. But when the hon. Member is making a categorical statement here that he has not given any bond and if the House has been informed, otherwise I think, it is a fit case. We should send this matter straightaway to the Committee of Privileges.
SHRI HARIN PATHAK (AHMEDABAD):
¸ÉÒ ½þÊ®úxÉ {ÉÉ`öEò : ¨É½þÉänùªÉ, xÉÒiÉÒ¶É EòÖ¨ÉÉ®ú VÉÒ xÉä VÉÉä ¤ÉÉiÉ Eò½þÒ ½þè ¨ÉèÆ =ºÉEòÉ ºÉ¨ÉlÉÇxÉ Eò®úiÉÉ ½þÚÆ, EªÉÉäÆÊEò ¨ÉèÆ BäºÉÒ PÉ]õxÉÉ ºÉä ¦ÉÖEiɦÉÉäMÉÒ ½þÚÆ* ¨ÉèÆ <ºÉ ºÉnùxÉ ºÉä +É{ÉEòä ¨ÉÉvªÉ¨É ºÉä Eò½þxÉÉ SÉɽþÚÆMÉÉ ÊEò VɤÉ-VÉ¤É ¦ÉÒ BäºÉÒ PÉ]õxÉÉBÆ ºÉƺÉnù ºÉnùºªÉÉäÆ Eòä ºÉÉlÉ ½þÉäiÉÒ ½þèÆ iÉÉä ´Éä Ê®ú{ÉÉä]õÇ ¨ÉÆMÉÉxÉä Eòä ʱÉB SɱÉÒ VÉÉiÉÒ ½þèÆ* BEò PÉ]õxÉÉ ¨Éä®úä ºÉÉlÉ PÉ]õÒ lÉÒ* VÉ¤É ºÉ¤É Eòä ºÉɨÉxÉä +½þ¨ÉnùɤÉÉnù Eòä SÉÉè®úɽþä {É®ú ¨ÉÖZÉä BEò {ÉÖÊ±ÉºÉ +ÉÊ¡òºÉ®ú xÉä ¨ÉÉ®úÉ* =ºÉ ºÉ¨ÉªÉ ʶɴɮúÉVÉ {ÉÉÊ]õ±É VÉÒ <ºÉ SÉäªÉ®ú {É®ú lÉä* VÉ¤É ´É½þ PÉ]õxÉÉ PÉ]õÒ lÉÒ iÉÉä ¨ÉèÆxÉä ªÉ½þÉÆ <ºÉ ¨ÉÖqä EòÉä =`öɪÉÉ lÉÉ* =ºÉ ´ÉEiÉ Ê®ú{ÉÉä]õÇ ¨ÉÆMÉ´ÉÉ<Ç MÉ<Ç +Éè®ú Ê®ú{ÉÉä]õÇ ¨ÉÆMÉ´ÉÉxÉä ¨ÉäÆ ªÉ½þ ½þÖ+É, ´É½þÉÆ ºÉä Ê®ú{ÉÉä]õÇ BäºÉÒ +É<Ç ÊEò BäºÉÒ PÉ]õxÉÉ PÉ]õÒ ½þÒ xɽþÒÆ ½þè*
I have lost the power of hearing from the left ear because of slapping by that police officer. We had asked for a report. The report had come from the Government. That was a political report that that sort of an incident had never taken place. So, I plead that this sort of an incident, or whenever such a thing happens, should be referred to the Committee of Privileges where the concerned officer should also have an ample opportunity to defend himself. Why are we not unanimous on this issue?
VÉ¤É BäºÉÒ PÉ]õxÉÉ PÉ]õiÉÒ ½þè iÉÉä =ºÉä Ê|ÉʴɱÉäWÉ Eò¨Éä]õÒ EòÉä ¦ÉäVÉÉ VÉÉB* =ºÉ +ÉÊ¡òºÉ®ú EòÉä =ºÉ iÉ®ú¡ò {ÉÚ®úÉ EòÉ {ÉÚ®úÉ ¤ÉSÉÉ´É EòÉ ¨ÉÉèEòÉ Ê¨É±ÉäMÉÉ* ¨ÉMÉ®ú Ê®ú{ÉÉä]õÇ ¨ÉÆMÉÉxÉä EòÒ ¤ÉÉiÉ `öÒEò xɽþÒÆ ½þè* <ºÉʱÉB ¨ÉèÆ xÉÒiÉÒ¶É EòÖ¨ÉÉ®ú VÉÒ EòÒ ¨ÉÉÆMÉ EòÉ ºÉ¨ÉlÉÇxÉ Eò®úiÉÉ ½þÚÆ*
... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)
SHRI P.R. DASMUNSI (HOWRAH):
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... (´ªÉ´ÉvÉÉxÉ)
SHRI SUNDER LAL PATWA:
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SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR (BALLIA):
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