DR.  M.P.  JAISWAL (BETTIAH):  You said that 17 bullets were fired at one
person.

MR.  SPEAKER :  Please listen.

			...  (Interruptions)

SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA:  So, Sir, if the House is anxious and you are anxious
that we should first hear Shri Rajiv Pratap Rudy..

MR.  SPEAKER :  No.

SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA:  But this has nothing to do with the other part of the
present issue.

MR.  SPEAKER :  Yes, I am dealing with a notice of Adjournment Motion.  I am
not dealing with an individual incident.

AN HON.  MEMBER:  Why not, Sir?

MR.  SPEAKER :  No, not at this moment.

			...  (Interruptions)

MR.  SPEAKER :  I know.

SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA:  About the other part relating to Adjournment Motion, all
I have got to say is that I have listened very carefully to Shri Jaswant Singh
and Shri Fernandes and they have made out no case whatsoever for claiming that
there is..

SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN (MUMBAI - NORTH EAST):  Sir, it is for you to decide.

			...  (Interruptions)

MR.  SPEAKER :  Let him argue.  He has a right to argue his own case.

			...  (Interruptions)

SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA:  No, that was about Shri Rudy.  Do not try to be
extra-clever.  (Interruptions)

MR.  SPEAKER :  It is all right.  You do not have to reply to them.  You can
make your points.

SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA:  That is referring to Shri Rudy's case, I said, we have
not received any intelligence report.  But you are talking about a general
collapse of law and order.  Who says, we have no report?  We have got reports
and on the basis of those reports, I want to say that there is no such
situation there which can be described as a breakdown of law and order.  There
are disturbances going on of any kind.  I do not wish to detail all those.  I
have got some reports of some of those detailed incidents also including group
clashes, attacks on various officers and people and all that is going on.  But
humbly, Sir, I do not concede that all this adds up to a complete breakdown of
law and order or a breakdown of the Constitution much less so.  We have not
received any report from the Governor of anything which substantiates the
allegation that there has been a complete breakdown of law and order.

	As for some of the other points you have mentioned, to my knowledge, I
do not know if some people gheraoed or demonstrated in front of the High
Court.  We have no report that the normal functioning of the High Court was
obstructed or impeded or not made possible to be carried on.

	Secondly regarding the Press reports, the Press has reported that
various threats have been issued.  Statements have been made by people to whom
Shri Jaswant Singh referred to, I think, as the highest authority in the
State.  He is reported to have uttered certain threats, `If somebody does like
this, I will do like that and so on and so forth.' I say that whatever threat
may or may not have been issued, those threats have not materialised.  Nothing
of that kind has happened.  (Interruptions)

DR.  MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI:  Sir, he has nothing to do with those threats.

SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA:  Nothing of that kind has happened...(Interruptions)
Nothing has happened, Sir.  (Interruptions) Like in Kerala..(Interruptions)
Nothing has happened to show that any directive given by the Centre, by the
Union Government has been defied by the State Government.  There is no such
instance on record.  There is nothing to show that the Central Intelligence
Agencies or any other organ of the Central Government has been impeded from
working or functioning there.  Therefore, in view of all this, perhaps, Shri
Jaswant Singh's claim has been a little premature.  Maybe, I do not know,
later on something may happen which will satisfy.  Now at the moment, it is
premature and nothing has happened to show..(Interruptions)

DR.  MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI:  By what time, do you expect something to happen?

MR.  SPEAKER :  Something to materialise.

			...  (Interruptions)

SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA:  The Union Government has not been challenged in any
sense that no order or no directive given from here has been defied by the
State Government.  Are we to go by what people are reportedly to be said in
statements?  I have not got, I do not know, for example, what was transpired
in the conversation or discussion which reportedly took place between the
Chief Minister of that State and the Governor.

	They had some meeting. They had some discussion. I am not in a
position to say what transpired between them. ...(Interruptions)

SHRI RAM NAIK (MUMBAI NORTH): Why not ask for the report from the Governor?

SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA : Yes, of course the report will come. Naturally, I will
get the report.

DR.  MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI:  Suppose, something has appeared in the Press.  Even
then, was it not your duty to enquire what has happened there?

SHRI KRISHAN LAL SHARMA (OUTER DELHI):



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MÉÉäʱɪÉÉÆ SɱÉÒ, EªÉÉ =ºÉEòÒ <x¡òÉä¨ÉÇä¶ÉxÉ ½þÉä¨É ʨÉÊxɺ]õ®ú ºÉɽþ¤É EòÉä ½þè ªÉÉ xɽþÒÆ?


SHRI   INDRAJIT   GUPTA   :   That   is  why  the  report  is  being  brought.
...(Interruptions) You were the Home Minister.

DR. MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI (ALLAHABAD):  Yes.  I  have  obtained  reports  within
half-an-hour. I know how it can be done.

SHRI KRISHAN LAL SHARMA (OUTER DELHI):



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MÉÉäʱɪÉÉÆ SɱÉÒÆ*


SHRI  INDRAJIT  GUPTA  :  Anyway,  Sir, as far as the relevant portion of this
goes, I repeat that there is no ground on which you should give  your  consent
for  admitting  this  Adjournment  Motion  because  no such situation has been
created in the State of Bihar and, therefore, this should not be admitted.

MR. SPEAKER : Well, before I go to the Motion, since  during  the  submissions
the  incident  and  firing on hon. Member has been referred to and hon. Member
Shri Chandra Shekhar has also made a very strong plea on that,  I  would  feel
that  this is a serious matter. Government may enquire into this and report to
this House. So, I dispose of that question.

SHRI SHARAD PAWAR (BARAMATI): Sir, you give him  security.  ...(Interruptions)
Government should provide security to him.

DR.  MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI:  Sir, the hon.  Member should be heard.

SHRI RAJIV  PRATAP  RUDY:    Sir,  how  can  you  do  it  without  hearing me?
...(Interruptions) Please allow me.  Sir,  you  are  disposing  of  my  matter
without even hearing me.

DR.  MURLI  MANOHAR  JOSHI:    Sir,  we  should hear from the person who was a
victim of all that happened.  Please listen to him.

MR. SPEAKER : The point is that even if the hon. Member speaks now,  the  Home
Minister will give the same reply that : `I have to find the facts'.

DR.  MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI:  Sir, let the House know what has happened.

MR. SPEAKER : Let him find out the facts.

DR.  MURLI MANOHAR JOSHI:  Mr.  Speaker, Sir, the House should  know  all  the
facts.  ...(Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER : Is it the sense of the House?

SOME HON. MEMBERS : Yes.

SOME HON. MEMBERS : No. It should not be done.

SHRI RAJIV PRATAP RUDY:  Sir, please listen to me.

MR.  SPEAKER  :  Shri Rudy, let the Home Minister get the report first. I will
give an opportunity for explanation at a later stage, not now.

			... (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER : I will give an opportunity.

SHRI RAJIV  PRATAP  RUDY:    Sir,  my  contention  is  ...(Interruptions) I am
prepared.  But I must know.  Something has happened there with me and the hon.
Home Minister says :  `How did you escape 17 bullets?' He must  be  having  an
explanation how I escaped.  I can only say one thing.  I am not going into the
facts or  details.    I  can  say  that  this  House  has  been deprived of an
opportunity to spend two minutes.  ...(Interruptions) That is the  only  thing
which  he  wanted  to hear and he would have been happy talking here that only
one bullet would have reached me and you would  have  been  happy  explaining.
That is the  point I would like to say.  You have your own agencies.  I do not
trust you all any more.  I do not believe what you all say.  You  have  failed
absolutely.  You have  your  own  agencies.  The reports have been sent.  They
have been there.  I would explain,  Sir,  when  you  permit  me.    But  I  am
absolutely  dumbfound  with  the  statements  made by the Home Minister that :
`How did he escape?' It was because of God and the good wishes of  my  friends
that I escaped.   It was not because of your protection.  ...(Interruptions) I
do have a vision and I know how to express myself.

	Sir, I must say that the Home Minister is the heartless Home  Minister
of this country. ...(Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER : Let me come to the Motion now.

			... (Interruptions)



MR. SPEAKER : Please listen. I think that is enough.

	I have gone through the contents of the notice. I have also heard very
carefully  the  submissions made by Shri Jaswant Singh followed by Shri George
Fernandes. The notice speaks only about the total breakdown of law  and  order
in the State of Bihar and it has explained how. It does not refer to any

constitutional breakdown in the State. Shri Jaswant Singh referred to it. Shri
George Fernandes, as usual, argued the case very vehemently.

	Assuming  for  argument's  sake  that  there is a breakdown of law and
order situation, not conceding to it, I do  not  think  that  Article  256  or
Article 257 or Article 365 applies.

	The  Constitution  is  very  clear. If there is a breakdown of law and
order and followed by a constitutional breakdown, the relevant article of  the
Constitution  of  India  at  the  moment  is 356. So, it has to be applied and
therefore for the purpose of Adjournment Motion,  I  do  not  think  that  the
question of breakdown of the constitutional machinery can be brought in.

	Shri  A.C.  Jos, on his point of order, has drawn the attention of the
House to Rule 58 (iii) where it is stated that the motion shall be  restricted
to  a  specific  matter  of  recent occurrence involving responsibility of the
Government of India. The rule is very clear that the matter  relating  to  law
and  order  is  a State subject and the House cannot discuss the matter of law
and order situation in the State. Therefore, I do  not  think,  there  is  any
justification  for  me  to  give  consent  to  move  the Adjournment Motion. I
withhold the consent.

 (Interruptions)

SHRI SRIBALLAV PANIGRAHI (DEOGARH): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have given a notice on
an important matter. The Labour Party Government has come to power  in  United
Kingdom.

MR.  SPEAKER:  Shri  Panigrahi,  I do not think that the matter which you have
raised fits into Zero Hour, because it is much more important than a matter to
be raised in Zero Hour. You can raise it through some other method. The matter
is regarding the question of the new Government coming into office  in  United
Kingdom,  their new policy and how it will affect the relationship with India.
I think that this is a matter to be discussed in a different way, not in  Zero
Hour where the Government cannot respond.

SHRI  SRIBALLAV  PANIGRAHI: Sir, we welcome the Labour Party Government there.
(Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: No; I have gone through all the notices.

 (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Today's Zero Hour is already over. I will see tomorrow.

	Now, Matters under Rule 377. Shri Dada Baburao Paranjpe - Not present.

 ________




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