delay is made. When less facilities are to be given, they are given promptly. This shows the intentions of anti-reservationists and this also shows that they are quite active in Government. Therefore, I would like to make a demand that in the guise of the Supreme Court judgement, reservation in promotions should not be done away with. The Government may make its policy clear on this issue.
SHRI KALKA DAS (Karol Bagh): The Supreme Court delivered its judgement in the Mandal Commission case and held that there will be no reservation in promotions. The judgements was nothing to do with the provision of reservation in promotions for the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes, yet, the same has been away with. The number of persons supposed to be promoted by now have not been promoted as per reports being received from each State. It is reported that the Selection Committee is saying that there will be no reservation in promotions since the Supreme Court judgement is there. When this issue was raised in the House, Shri Ghulam Nabi Azad rose to make a clarification but instead of clarifying it, he further complicated it and made it more ambiguous. He said that the judgement of the Supreme Court will be implemented. Though we kept on emphasising that this judgement does not cover the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes, yet it is covering them. He should let us know the policy of Government. The Supreme Court has not given any decision about the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes. The decision was for the O.B.C. The Government has decided to apply the same decisions on the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes. I consider it a political gimmick and it aims at penalising the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes. It is a deplorable act. I as well as my party condemn it. Because no verdict was given regarding the SC/STs.
MR. SPEAKER: First. you ask the
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Government about its attitude, then condemn it.
SHRI KALKA DAS: The verdict does not apply on the promotions of the employees of Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes. Therefore, it is wrong to infringe on their rights, Government should say it in clear terms.
SHRI SURYA NARAYAN YADAV (Saharasa): Mr. Speaker, Sir, whenever the issue of reservation is discussed, it seems as if the Government is in dilemma. Today, it is the question of the fate of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes. There is no such court verdict which may create any difficulty. The Government should make a categorical statement on it at the earliest. It should fulfill their as well as our demand. (Interruptions)
SHRI VIJOY KUMAR YADAV (Nalanda): Mr. Speaker, Sir, we are not being provided an opportunity. Every party has been given a chance but the C.P.I. is not being given any opportunity. It is wrong.....
SHRI VISHWANATH PRATAP SINGH (Fatehpur): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not see any problem in it. The notification issued by the Government in respect of S.C. and S.T. holds good even today. Through you, I would like to ask the Government to make it clear today itself that the Government Notification regarding reservation in promotion stands today. There is no change in it. If there is no change in that why this Government is depriving the 'dalits', S.C. & and S.Ts of their rights. The Government should make it clear today without delay even for a day.
Sir, one thing is clear about the law that the decision given on a particular subject applies only to that subject and not to any other subject. Were the Government Notifications regarding the reservation for Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes under the
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consideration of the Court? Only the notification regarding the reservation for backward classes was under consideration of the Court.
Therefore, no pronouncement applies on reservation in promotions for S.Cs. and S.Ts. Even then the Government is creating a dispute. We should not encourage it even for a second. If any such question arises in the country, the Government should try to solve it by issuing a necessary clarification on it.
SHRI RATILAL VERMA (Dhanduka): Mr. Speaker, Sir, the House is aware that the biggest ever anti-reservation agitation was launched in Gujarat. The House has always been unanimous in the matter of reservation for S.Ss and S.Ts. On the pretext of other Backward Classes and on the pretext of the judgement of the Supreme Court, the people belonging to S.Cs and STs are not being provided reservation in promotions. The worst affected State is Gujarat. The people who are on the verge of promotion have been denied the same. They would not be given any promotion till the Government clarifies the position.
Through you, I would like to say that it would be injustice to the Crores of S.Cs. and S.Ts people if delay is made even for one day in announcing the necessary clarification. In this regard, the Government should make a statement today itself that the rights of S.C.S. and S.Ts people will be provided to them.
SHRI VIJOY KUMAR YADAV: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I support the views expressed by the hon. Members. No confusion should be created regarding the verdict delivered by the Supreme Court As Shri Vishwanath Pratap Singh has just now said that the matter was abut other Backward classes but even then there is a confusion throughout the country. The people who are anti-Mandal are creating confusion and distorting the facts. In such circumstances, when there is confusion all over the country the central Government should make the position clear immediately stating that this verdict does not
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apply to the Scheduled casts and Scheduled tribes people.
SHRI SHARAD DIGHE (Bombay North Central): Mr. Speaker, Sir, there are no two opinions that the reservations regarding promotion to the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes should continue hereafter also. But I feel; that there is some confusion regarding the interpretation of the judgement of the Supreme Court. If we carefully read the judgement of the Supreme Court, then I feel that the interpretation would be that it affects the promotion of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes also. So, the issue was not directly and substantially before the court and only two Notifications were to be decided whether they could be struck down or they are valid. But even then, this highest Court of this country has somehow or the other discussed this issue of promotion and if we go carefully through that Judgement, then I feel that the interpretation would be that the Supreme Court's view at present at least is that it should not apply to promotion even for the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes.
Therefore, what is the remedy what I submit is that mere issuing Notification by the Government would not be the remedy at all because of such a Notification is issued, then whatever wishes we may have, the Supreme Court taking the same view may strike down that Notification also. Therefore, the remedy would be to go for review before the Supreme Court and get this clarified from the Supreme Court itself or.... (Interruptions).
Another remedy is to amend the Constitution and get it done.
Merely issuing a Notification will have no effect, you will not get whatever you want.
If you really want to get whatever you wish and you desire to get, then you must follow the proper remedy. (Interruptions).
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SHRI VISHWANATH PRATAP SINGH: There is no need of a Notification, there is already the existing Notification. (Interruptions)
SHRI SHARAD DIGHE: That Notification is affected by the
MR. SPEAKER: One clarification.
SHRI KALKA DAS: He is confusing the matter. (Interruptions) MR. SPEAKER: When important issues come up for discussion, one should not try to distort the facts
MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Dighe, I would like to know whether that was your own view. Was what you said your own view?
SHRI SHARAD DIGHE: My individual view is that this reservation in promotion should continue. And that is my view. What I say is that we must follow the proper remedy. Merely issuing a Notification will not be sufficient. It will not protect the promotions at all. You will have to amend the Constitution or go before the Supreme Court to achieve our objective.
SHRI MOHAN SINGH (Deoria): Mr. Speaker, Sir. I would like to say that I agree with the views expressed by Mr. Dighe. I would also like to request my hon, colleagues to study the entire judgement delivered by the Supreme Court in this regard. After read-
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ing such a confusion is bound to arise. It is true that we cannot comment upon the judgement of the Supreme Court, but I can say that the Supreme Court has given its opinion without listening to all the parties. The issue of promotions of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes was not under the consideration of the Supreme Court. The judgement given by the Supreme Court without hearing all the sides is bound to create such a confusion. I would like to emphasise the Government that the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes should get reservation in promotions and earlier orders of the Government of India should continue to apply. Keeping in view the decision of the Supreme Court, the Government should convene a meeting of all political parties immediately and take an appropriate action after arriving at a conclusion as to how clarification is to be issued in this regard. (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Please understand that you are discussing a very complicated issue and supposing all of you stand up at one and the same time and speak that is not going to help. Let us try to understand what the House wants in this respect. I think, on an issue like this, without reading the judgment we should not come to any conclusion; without understanding the implication of the judgement also we should not come to any conclusion, because if we express our views without going through the judgement carefully then wrong signals will go out and that is not good. Left it be carefully studied and if necessary, the party leaders can sit together and can decide.
SHRI VISHWANATH PRATAP SINGH: Sir, is the Government responding or not?
MR. SPEAKER: I was allowing the Government to respond, but the hon. Mem-
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bers are very eager to express their views.
SHRI CHANDRAJEET YADAV: Sir, for your information I want to tell you I have read the entire judgement.
MR. SPEAKER: Very good.
SHRI GUMAN MAL LODHA (Pali): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have studied very carefully the judgement given by the Supreme Court. At no stage, anything has been stated about striking down the provision regarding reservation in promotion for Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes.
The notification regarding reservation in promotion for Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes, issued by the Government of India has also not been withdrawn. Its operation has also not been suspended.
Therefore, it has become the duty of the Government of India to implement its own decision without any hesitation. If anybody wants to have some other provision implemented on the basis of that decision, he should appeal to the Supreme Court. The Government of India need not review it.
SHRI E. AHAMED (Manjeri): Mr. Speaker, Sir, the issue raised by shri Ram vilas Paswan is of great importance to all of us and to this country as well. Whatever benefits the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes are enjoying now shall not be discontinued. This is a political decision taken by the Government and such a political decision cannot be wiehtled down by the hair-splitting interpretation of the legality and the constitutionality. There was no such issue before the Supreme Court. If anybody is aggrieved by the continuing of these benefits, let him approach the Court with his grievances. The Government need not go before; the Court because this is a decision taken by the Government years before and
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C. and S. T.
it is being continued through out the country. Such a benefit cannot be discontinued only by some observation by the Supreme Court of India. Therefore, I plead with the Government to continue with these benefits and if anybody is aggrived by this, let him go before the Court. Then, we will have an opportunity to proceed with the case.
SHRI NITISH KUMAR (Barh): Mr. Speaker, Sir, Mr. Kesari, the Minister of Welfare has come. You should direct him to reply instead of Shri Azad (Interruptions)
THE WELFARE MINISTER (SHRI SITARAM KESARI): It is not a matter of any bravery. It is the dispute between the Mandir and the Mandal. But I regret to say.. (Interruptions) that the supporters of the Mandal do not support the temple issue. (Interruptions)
SHRI KALKA DAS: Mr. Speaker, Sir, from where the dispute of the Mandir and the Masjid has come in between the judgement the Supreme Court? Do you want to entangle us on the issue of the Mandir and the Masjid. (Interruptions). When we talk of the Mandir, you get irritated.
SHRI SATYA DEO SINGH (Balrampur): You should come to the point and remove the doubts that the judgement given by the Supreme Court regarding reservation in promotions would not apply to Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes. The Government should announce that there is no such direction by the Supreme Court and it is firm on its past policy that reservation in promotion for the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes will continue to be given as per earlier policy. Why are you entangling this issue with the Mandir? It is beyond your control. The Rath Yatra was started after the pronouncement of decision on the Mandal Commission. (Interruptions)
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C. and S. T.
SHRI GUMAN MAL LODHA: Mr. Speaker, Sir, Please don't divert the issue. (Interruptions)
SHRI SATYNAARAYAN JATIYA: Speaker, Sir, the hon. Minister is taking it lighlt. Through you, I would like to request the hon.
Minister to give a precise reply. (Interruptions)
SHRI KALKA DAS: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Government is playing with this issue and hurting the senitments of people. It is hurting the feelings of the people belonging to the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes. (Interruptions)
SHRI SATYA DEO SINGH: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the hon. Minister is acustomed to being in irrelevant matters. It has become a havior with him. I make a request, through you, that he should speak in clear terms. (Interruptions)
SHRI KALKA DAS: Mr. Speaker, Sir, he is taking it lightly. He is playing with the issue. This Government has come into power with the help of those people and it is playing with them. (Interruptions) MR. SPEAKER: None but you raised this issue, and now you are not allowing him to speak. Please let him speak. Pleas hear him. If you go on interrupting him, he too will remain silent.
SHRI NITISH KUMAR: Please don't speak the language of newspaper headlines. (Interruptions)
SHRI SITARAM KESRI: Mr. Speaker, Sir, nothing is spoken here which is not worthy of being published. It is regrettable that here the fight is between the issue of the Mandal Commission and that of the temple. (Interruptions)
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Mr. Speaker. Sir, one day a special debate should be held on this issue with a view to ascertain whether the "He Ram" and the "Shri Ram" feudal and the king stood for the poor or not. (Interruptions).
MR. SPEAKER: Do you want any response from the Government or not?
If you want any response from the Government, then let him please complete.
MR. SPEAKER: It is not like this. You cannot stand up for
everything and shut. It is not correct.
MR. SPEAKER: Let him complete first.
MR. SPEAKER: If you do not require response, he will take his seat. (Interruptions)
SHRI SITARAM KESRI: Mr. Speaker, Sir, when the sun rises,
darkness disappears. (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Shri Kesri, he has asked the question as to what is the stand of the Government of the judgement given by the Supreme Court.
SHRI SITARAM KESRI: Mr. Speaker, Sir, so far as the judgement of the Supreme Court is concerned, we have duly welcomed it. The Government is examining its every word and trying to implement the judgement. We assure you that my Ministry has taken initiative in this connection and all State Governments are being asked to implement it.
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SHRI CHANDRA JEET YADAV: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the hon. Minister was not present when the question was raised here. Therefore, Shri Ghulam Nabi Azad should be directed to apprise th hon. Minister of the questions raised in the speeches delivered here. (Interruptions) Mr.
Speaker, Sir, please help a bit. When the issue was raised here the hon. Minister was not present. Therefore, Shri Ghulam Nabi Azad should apprise him of the points raised.
SHRI RAM NAIK (Bombay North): I am on a point of propriety.
SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN: The hon. Minister was not present in the House. If the Parliamentary Affairs Minister wants to say something let him say.
THE MINISTER OF PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS (SHRI GHULAM NABI AZAD): There is no question of propriety because the hon. Minister was not present in the House. That is why, he did not know what is the question. (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: I will hear you. But then you allow me to create condition in which I can hear you. Please sit down.
SHRI CHANDRA SHEKHAR (Ballia): May I make a suggestion? It is a very sensitive matter. As has been indicated by many speakers here, the Government should form its view and make a statement tomorrow morning.