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from the pressure of fendalism and their economic and social condition is to be improved. Above all, they have to be educated and also provided housing facilities. Scheduled Castes, Scheduled Tribes MLAs and MPs do get elected in all the States, however they should have an equal participation in the Welfare Schemes. It has been pointed out several times in the House that the Scheduled Caste Scheduled Tribes quota in jobs is not being filled up. Does the Government think that they are not capable and that they are not suitable to the posts of category. A,B and C. But the posts even in category D or grade-IV like those of peon etc are also not being filled up and the Government says that since suitable candidates are not available, SC-ST quota is not being filled up. The hon. Deputy Minister in the Ministry of Welfare is present here. I would submit to her that her department is quite important. It will neither do any justice by preparing a list not by making certain variations in it.
I would like to give a few suggestions. Firstly, there should be a common list. If a caste is included in the list of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes in one State, it should not be excluded in the list of the other States. Secondly, I do agree that the matter is not under the jurisdiction of the Welfare Ministry, but it is well within the jurisdiction of the cabinet and so I would like the hon. Minister that she should lay a pressure on the Cabinet and get the Government commitment for bringing about the radical land reform fulfilled. The waste land lying with the Government should be given to them. It would improve their financial condition.
PROF. PREM DHUMAL (Hamirpur): Mr. Chairman, Sir, the objective of the Private Members Bill presented by Shri Bhagwan Shankar Rawat to amend the SC and ST list is very limited since it relates only to Uttar Pradesh. My submission to hon. Minister of Welfare is that many such Bills have been presented by many members in the past which were all restricted to one State or the other. During the last session a Bill was introduced and passed regarding
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inclusion of Gurjar Caste of Jammu and Kashmir in the list of scheduled castes and scheduled tribes. I had suggested at that time also that these bills should not be restricted to the specific areas and castes. A National policy should be chalk out in this regard. When a person belonging to scheduled castes and scheduled tribes goes to another State he does not get those facilities, which he was enjoying in his state. The main reason for this situation is that the names of the castes associated with similar professions differ from State to State. Since the names included in the list of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes are not the same in all the states, the person does not get facilities available to him in his own State in any other State.
I tell you an amazing thing. When Punjab was recognized in 1966 some part of it transferred to Himachal Pradesh. Haryana was also set up at that time. The Gurjars or Gaddis living in what is called the old area of Himachal Pradesh are considered Scheduled tribes but the persons of same community living in the areas transferred to Himachal Pradesh were not considered as Scheduled Tribes.
THE MINISTER OF STATE OF THE MINISTRY OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS (SHRI R.L. BHATIA): Where do they live?
PROF. PREM DHUMAL: Bhatia ji, the old area means the area on low altitude. Gujars Daddis living in this area are considered Scheduled Tribes.
SHRI R.L. BHATIA: You belong to high altitude region of the country. Why do met come down?
PROF. PREM DHUMAL: I am stating this because Gaddis or Gujars live in hilly areas also. The social injustice is still being done for them. There are different categories even in one State.
Mr. Chairman, Sir, the carpenter and the blacksmith belong to the same family but the blacksmith has been included in the list of scheduled castes while the carpenter has
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not been. These people are not getting those facilities. In the Constituency reserved for scheduled castes and scheduled tribes the person belonging to the blacksmith community can become as M.L.A. or M.P. while the member of the some family who is engaged in the work of a carpenter does not have that facility. Even his children do not get the facility in schools. A person belonging to blacksmith community can contest election. During the last session when Gurjar caste was included in the list of scheduled tribe in Jammu and Kashmir, I had suggested at that time that this thing should be considered in the context of the whole country. The position in the adjoining States should also be considered so that the castes which have been left out should also be included in the list. Therefore,my suggestion is that the reservation policy should be reviewed, so that we may not receive representations every time from small States demanding inclusion of one caste or the other in the list of scheduled castes and scheduled tribes. Can a law be made in precemeal? As you have included, Bnajara community but left out Kurmi. I would not like to quote the names of various castes but will suggest that a decision should be taken at national level as to which castes should be included in the list of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes and which should not be included.
Mr. Chairman, Sir, the second issue is related to the rotation of constituency. The Constituency should be changed after every five to ten years i.e. the reserved constituency should become unreserved or general constituency and general constituency should be declared as reserved constituency. Some constituencies have been going on as reserved constituency for the last twenty years. If a person from any high caste wants to contest election from a reserved Constituency, he can not do that. But if a leader belonging to scheduled caste contests election in an open constituency, he cannot win the election. Is there any open Constituency from where a candidate belonging to Scheduled caste has ever won an election of an M.P. or M.L.A. Therefore, it is necessary that a policy of rotation of
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[Prof. Prem Dhumal]
constituencies is adopted. A constituency should be reserved for ten years, after that it should be declared open or unreserved or general.
It would solve the problem.
Mr. Chairman, Sir, the main attraction of the inclusion in the list of scheduled caste or scheduled tribe is to get reservation in jobs. The various facilities available at the time of getting education include the facility to get reservation in employment. That is why there is a race to get included in the list. As was in the case of Mandal Commission. a caste called Chidimar had been included in the list by Mandal Commission. Which is it? Another caste is Patial who are high caste Rajputs. They demand all type of facilities because their caste has been included in the list. All these disputes are because of castes. Therefore, my submission is that all relevant information should be gathered and Central Government should appoint a commission to determine as to which castes should be included in the list and which should not be included so that when a person shifts from one State to another be is not denied the facilities he got in previous state, so that people may not lag behind. I would conclude with this words.
Mr. Chairman,Sir,I thank you for giving me opportunity for expressing my views.
SHRI HARCHAND SINGH (Ropar): Mr. Chairman, Sir, I rise to oppose the bill presented by the hon. Member 45 years have passed since our country got independence. The people belonging to SC, ST have not been given any benefit till now. In the Assembly and in the House people belonging to S.C. come due to the reservation provided to them but when there is any talk of any benefit they are not considered. None belonging to SC/ST has been included in the Government which has 16 cabinet Ministers. Those who have been included as State Minister or Deputy Minister are not Cabinet Ministers. They do not attend the meeting of Cabinet. Only 16 of them attend these meetings but it should be proportionate to the number of SC/ST members in the 483 Const.(S.T.) (U.P.) order (Amend.) Bill (Amend of schedule) by Shri Bhagwan Shankar Rawat
Parliament. Mr. Chairman, Sir, you will be surprised to learn, that in the Rajya Sabha, two members of Scheduled Castes have come from Punjab this year. For 40 years no member of the Scheduled Tribe was taken in the Rajya Sabha this year two members have come. I thank the Prime Minister for doing this. You should note that 20 years after birth an individual does B.A. After B.A. he gets degree of law and practices law upto 10-15 years he can reach at high posts. How many Scheduled Castes are employed in High Courts or Supreme Court? No Sessions judges there belongs to the Scheduled Tribes. That is why there should be reservation in the Rajya Sabha, in the high courts and in the Councils of Ministers. Many people talk about reservation, but when the question of giving anything comes no one speaks about it.
Scheduled Castes are there only to give votes. This situation has arisen because Scheduled Castes have been casting their votes in favour of Congress only. Since 45 years the Scheduled Castes have been voting for the Congress. In Rajasthan 15 Jatavs have been murdered, but the hon. Member Sahib did not say anything and now he is talking about the Jatavs.
THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF RURAL DEVELOPMENT (DEPARTMENT OF WASTELAND DEVELOPMENT) (COL. RAM SINGH): Mr. Chairman, Sir, he has said that no one in the cabinet belongs to the Scheduled Castes. He has forgotten Shankranandji. He does not even remember his name.
SHRI HARCHAND SINGH: Shankranand ji gives petrol gas. What to do with it? He should get every thing according to his duty towards Harijans, Harijans should get everything according to their number.
MR. CHAIRMAN: You should recommend to Bhatia ji to make Sardar Harchand Singh ji the Minister.
SHRI HARCHAND SINGH: That is why I am saying that if the
intention of the Government is clear then it should do some thing for their welfare. Today, 20 crore
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Harijans are living in Hindustan. Though, they are Hindus but they are not regarded as Hindus by the Hindus. All of them give votes to the Congress. In U.P. 29 people have been killed and in Rajasthan 15 people were killed. There may be any ruling party but Harijans are made to suffer, (Interruptions)
PROF. PREM DHUMAL (Hamirpur): Mr. Chairman, Sir, we object to the allegation leveled by him on the Chief Minister. It should kindly be expunged from the record.
[English]
MR. CHAIRMAN: This will not go on record. (Interruptions)*
[Translation]
SHRI HARCHAND SINGH: I would only like to say one thing.
(Interruptions)
MR. CHAIRMAN: Today, it is a free for all.
SHRI HARCHAND SINGH: I would say only one thing that if there is reservation in the Rajya Sabha, in the Cabinet and in the High Courts, then it may be all right,otherwise they will continue to vote for Congress for whether anyone says so or not. He is talking about Shankaranand ji, I only know that it has been five months since I came here, someone should tell me what Shankaranand ji has said about Harijan bretherns that what he is doing for them but has he said anything about their welfare. Those who are sitting here have also not said anything.
COL. RAM SINGH: Shankaranand ji gives a lot of support.
SHRI HARCHAND SINGH: Col. Sahib, you also give him a lot of support. I would certainly like to say that our Prime Minister is a man of very religious nature. When he went to Tirupati, everyone there was praising him. I had myself gone there. I saw that in Vishakapatanam one and a half people were assembled there to listen to him. Everyone was praising him. That is why I appeal to him with folded hands, Mr. Chairman, Sir, that
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there is still time, you are the saviour of the poor, which is why you should provide reservation for Harijans and backward classes in the Rajya Sabha as well as in the Cabinet and in all the high courts. With these words, I thank you.
SHRI RAJESH KUMAR (Gaya): Mr. Chairman, Sir, there should be reservation in Rajya Sabha also. There is a provision to include the `Banjara' caste in the Constitution Amendment Bill, 1967 and I support this Bill. At the same time, I want to put certain suggestions before the Government for its consideration.
Today, the situation is that many castes are yet to be included in the list of the S.Cs and S.Ts. Not only in Uttar Pradesh, but in many other States of the country also, there are many castes which have not been included in the list of the S.Cs and S.Ts and their economic and social condition is quite miserable. Therefore, my suggestion is that where `Banjara' caste is included in it. some other castes like Nat, Sain, Keet in Hindus and Dhobi and Halkhor in Muslims, whose condition is thousand times worse than that of other castes included in the list of S.Cs should also be included in it. No matter if such people come from any region, any State or any village but they should be included in the list of SCs and STs. Although they deserve inclusion, they cannot make their demand for their rights properly. I make a suggestion to include all such castes.
Mr. Chairman, Sir, this is not the case of Uttar Pradesh alone. A large number of people have obtained fake certificates which show that they are members of SCs and STs in order to seek admission to several educational institutions and Engineering colleges or to participate in every field of education and to seek Government jobs or jobs in the Railway Department. In some cases, people have been elected to State Legislative Assemblies after obtaining such fake certificates.
Therefore, it is my request that a committee to examine these issues should be constituted. That committee should be a Parliamentary Committee to examine such cases minutely, not only in Uttar
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[Sh. Rajesh Kumar]
Pradesh, but all over the country and the act of such people is against the spirit of the Constitution. The Government and we should pay attention to it seriously.
Secondly I want to say that amendments are being made to our Constitution every now and then, which are not needed. Amendment should be made only after examing the facts in detail. I do not appreciate the practice of making amendment every day. A thorough examination of such cases should throughout the country and only such persons should be included in the list to ensure that non SCs are not able to get themselves included in it and amendments are not needed every now and then.
Only those people should be included in the list of the SCs and STs who are socially and economically backward. They should also be provided opportunity to seek livelihood and lead life independently in their respective States and they should be provided all the facilities enjoyed by SCs and STs. This is my submission to the Government through you.
Lastly, I want to point out that I support fully the Bill brought here with regard to giving facilities to Banjara caste. I think the Government should accept the suggestions that I have made. A comprehensive amendment should be made and a Parliamentary Committee constituted to examine the case in detail on village, district and State level. In this Committee the Members of the Parliament belonging to the S.Cs and the S.Ts should be included so that they can carry out probe fairly to decide as to which castes should be included in this list. I support this motion and express my thanks.
SHRI SANTOSH KUMAR GANGWAR (Bareilly): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I
support the Bill moved by my colleague Shri Bhagwan Shankar Rawat.
During the Ninth Lok Sabha and in the present Tenth Lok Sabha, such issue has been raised and assurance has always been given that the matter would be considered at length and a Bill introduced to 488 Const. (S.T.) (U.P.) order (Amend.) Bill (Amend of schedule) by Shri Bhagwan Shankar Rawat
include all the castes that could not be included in this list. But it appears that which ever Government have been there, have not fulfilled their promise to include these castes.. It is the need of the hour to conduct a survey throughout the country and to gather information as to which caste should be included in which caste and then a Bill should be brought forward.
Sir, the `Banjara' caste is also similar type of caste which should be taken in to account. I want to say something about one more caste of Uttar Pradesh about which I made a mention during the Ninth Lok Sabha also that the population of the "Bhurji" community in Uttar Pradesh is one lakh. From social, economic and every point of view the Bhurji community has close similarity to Scheduled Castes. These people are associated with the industries relating to gram, beaten paddy and rice. But in want of proper cooperation and support, this caste is also likely to vanish and its profession and art are also likely to vanish. In order to preserve the art of this caste and to provide proper encouragement to it, it is necessary that a thought should be given to it and this caste included in the list of Scheduled Castes.
For this purpose, I wrote letters also in my capacity as a member of the Ninth Lok Sabha and gave clear information of it that this caste comes under these rules. Therefore,it is my submission that this caste should be included in this list. In this regard I do not want to say more but I want to request that the Government should clear the backlog as it was said by Shri Sitaram Kesari that he would clear the backlog. I know well that the encouragement which should have been given to these castes during last 44 years, has not been given. We should dissolve our differences and give encouragement to these castes and a congenial atmosphere should be created so that all are equal in society. I would like to insist that this Bill is not related to a single caste only but it is related to the entire society. Today Government should assure the House through this Bill because the Government expressed its consent at the